Australian Rover V8 conversion

I've not paid a lot of attention to the engine transplant scene till now. (I'm frightened to because of the dollars involved) I came across this today and thought it looked pretty good. I'd be very interested in what you experts think of this one:
http://www.healeyfactory.com.au/productsb/_products_sub_group_details.asp?id=779

BTW, the price works out to about $21,000 US dollars

Wont "fly" with the RTA in NSW ... $32,000 dream on !

I'm no expert but I don't think you could build one that nice for $21K. Looks like a good deal to me.

The Healy factory are known for being expensive. They do have a good reputation though. The wheels could be better and the 3.5 is not one of the better motors (3.9, 4.0, 4.2,4.6)I would expect at >30,000. It has flapper (federal) style injection on it which is not as good as the later hotwire.
They do not mention antitramp bars (necessary) , and the exhaust headers may be block huggers. Original MGBGTV8, but through the guards variety are far better, and cool the engine compartment better, which would be why there are louvers in the bonnet in this case.
On the plus side the engine has been blueprinted (you’d want proof) and who ever did the original restoration did a good job. Nice paint interior, good wiring.
I don't know about the engine swap being professionally done. Note the unpainted weld at the back, and general untidy arrangement on top of the port side tappet cover. Professionals generally do a much neater job. Note as well the red silicone around the water pump. Nothing wrong with silicone, but smears are sloppy and a professional would at least use Ultra grey silicon, which blends in. They are using a rover P5/P6 balancer, which is what they had on the original V8.
The brake booster/master set up is from a rubber bumper car, '75 or '76. It’s odd that they did not repaint it when they fitted it. Being a 3.5 the brake up grade is most likely to be to mgb GT V8 spec, which are usually 50/50 MG/triumph callipers with thicker disks, not ventilated disks
That unconnected sensor on the oil pressure line (near the brake master) indicates that this was a US car, and has had the steering swapped. The American will have to tell us if that dash is a chromebumper or a rubberbumper.
The steering is a rubber bumper column, post ’75 and there is not a trace to indicate where the original radiator support panels went, which in chrome bumpers are set further back. If it wasn’t for the welded foot well bit at the back I would say that this is a rubber bumper to chrome bumper conversion, like mine.

A nice car, and they will sell it at around that price, eventually. $27000 would be more realistic purchase price.

Thanks Pete. I'd noticed the 3.5 engine, the headers and wondered about the presence of track rods too. The rest is stuff I'm new to and I appreciate your input. I'd been thinking about building a V8 conversion one day (one day...one day..), but a well done completed conversion that you could then "play" with, such as changing to through inner guard manifolds on this car might be a reasonable alternative. Gavin's comments about our RTA no longer allowing V8 conversions might end all further thoughts in this direction though.

Here's a copy of a PM I sent Gavin yesterday: Hi Gavin, sorry to labour this point but I'm very disappointed; you've deflated a long-held dream of mine!. Let me get this straight. Despite there being hundreds (if not thousands) of V8 MGB conversions around the world, so much so that an entire industry has grown up to service the demand, and, that even the original MGB manufacturer produced two separate V8 models themselves, our own local RTA. the ever-possessor of infinite wisdom has outlawed what anyone else in any other state or country of the world can legally possess and drive????!!!

Gavin,
Do you have any info or links on the RTA comment above.

The left to right arrangment of the guages on the dash are the same as on a US RB model

That dash, being RHD, is no American option!

DavidMGA1600 Wrote:

Gavin, there's hundreds of cars on that list from reputable large-scale manufacturers. Are you really telling me firstly, that those narrow-minded bureaucrats have outlawed all these cars from our roads, and secondly, that they've pulled it off without a whimper of complaint from the public???!!
I'm finding this both staggering and hard to believe!!

The list does infact cover just about every V8 ever registered in Australia.
The list I npte, is specific for P plate drivers. P plate drivers are not allowed behind the wheel of high powered cars. If you are on P's, the list applies to you. Which is where the misconception may have arisen. Actually I'd check the origins of the list with the RTA. I could not find an MG on it. There are infact many modern cars that have greater power to weight ratios than mgv8's.
Ring the RTA, ask for the list of engineers who can approve car alterations. You may have to persist if you get an unhelpful civil servant (who'd have thought there could be such a thing!). I did when I was starting mine. Eventually I struck a helpful person who gave me a list. I called one of the engineers and had a preliminary chat. It does not hurt to arrange a paid appointment prior to beginning. Detail what you are going to do, ask for advice. Don't bother getting into an argument. Criteria must be met, bottom line.
You do also need an engineers certificate here in Victoria. It's not really a problem. It cost me around $600 with a brake stopping test. You must meet their requirements. I had to fit a brake upgrade kit and seat belt restraints. They didn;t like the welds on my engine brackets, so I got a professional welder with a mig to go over them. Cost $60, but I had a receipt from a professional. I fitted antiramps and a much larger antisway bar later, when I could afford it. These were not required by the engineer.
They will be aiming at getting your car to fit into an accepted criteria. What you are doing is not a hot rod, it is a factory produced car with all the required crash and safety tests etc. For example if it is a 3.5, you need MGBGTV8 brakes. If it has a 3.9 or 4.0, then you need RV8 ventilated or equivalent brakes. You need to discuss things like that, for example, the brake hoses on MG's were rubber, so they've got to be rubber, not superior stainless braided. Unless of course you can get a set with an ADR number on them. This is why I got the kit from MG workshops in Melbourne. I have read that NSW's requires that you reinforce the through he guard extractor holes, which is not necessary in Victoria. However, even if they do require genuine RV8 reinforcing bits, you can buy them. They are just not cheap, that's all. be carful about minimum clearances, engine mounts, that sort of thing.
Once you’ve got an engineers cert’ it’s not a problem. The RTA person just checks the rego, the engine number etc to confirm it was the engine certified by the Engineer.
I can’t know for sure, of course, without spending a few hours on the phone with the RTA etc, but I’d take odds on it being OK. I do know RV8’s are being brought in from Japan and registered. Theres a guy called Barrie Egerton, who's got two MGBV8's in Sydney. I'd also take odds that he is also no longer a P plater mind you.
Another approach is to ring people like Dellow automotive who make bell housings for engine swaps. They must know an engineer or two.

That RTA list is 125 pages long and there are a lot of cars per page.

HT Holden...are they serious?
Damn things couldn't pull the skin off a rice pudding !
Then again even that was more power than the chassis could be trusted to handle !

Pete.

Who is RTA? and why are they doing that?

Dave

Who is RTA and why are they doing that? What is with this list.

Dave

Thomas, Peter, David & Others

Phoned the NSW Roads and Traffic Authority today and this is what they say and I quote ...

In 1995 a Code of Practise was initiated for the modification of vehicles in response to some of the "modifications" that were being made to "light" vehicles. Up until 1994 as long as you had a Certified Engineer inspect said vehicle and issue a Certificate of Inspection the modification was allowed.

However; as is often the case a few spoilt it for the many by some of the outlandish engine transplants into some cars that were ... unsafe.

As part of the current Code of Practise each vehicle is given a Certified Weight; being the weight of the heaviest car produced; in the case of the MGB which came with a four cylinder engine the maximum weight is 960KG.

The Formula used by the RTA in determining the maximum engine size allowable is ... maximum weight of the car multiplied by three.

The Formula as applied to the MGB is as follows - 960KG x 3 = 2,880 ... so the maximum engine size allwable for an MGB in the State of NSW is 2.88Litre's

This is well short of the 3.5 Rover Motor ... so if the car is already registered as a V8 in NSW prior to 95 you're good to go; however if the rego has expired; it's game over.

The other acceptable alternative is if the car came from the factory as a V8; which covers the GT and RV8's but alas rules out the roadster.

Hasta La Vista Babee B)

Gavin

It’s is frustrating and disheartening that governments think they must try and control every aspect of our lives. And somehow we just keep letting them do it. Sadly our nation is moving fast in that direction.

Dave

I would love to know how they determined the number 3. (960KG x 3 = 2,880)
But remember that is the engine capacity and not the HP. I'm sure a lot of Japanese engines of less than 2.88 litres could fry a 3.5 litre V8.


Its also another good reason to move to Queensland.

DavidMGA1600 Wrote:

So then I guess a Buick 455 would be out of the question?

Jim

chin up NSW
From the Moss catalogue
http://www.mossmotors.com/MemberServices/CarSpecifications/CarSpecifications.aspx?CarSpecsID=161
And that's good enough to quote at the RTA (or in fact the engineer)
Unladen Weight 2290 lb (1039 kg) 1975-1976; 2416 lb (1097 kg)
Curb Weight 2590 lb (1174 kg) 1975-1976; 2716 lb (1234 kg)
Gross Weight 2710 lb (1229 kg) 1975-1976; 2836 lb (1287 kg)

My own car is around the 1100kg mark, and that's with the rubber bumpers swapped for chrome, performance superlites and a gear box and motor that's at least 25kg lighter than original, which would confirm it. If the RTA have MGB's listed somewhere at 960kg, they have the lightest, not the heaviest weight and may easily be challenged/corrected. If necessary the MGB club could pen a letter, but I believe that the Moss catalogue should be enough.
This might also cover chrome bumpers, which are also MGB's.

This gets you a 3.5 V8 and did I hear someone say stroker kit with bearing cap studs and reinforced sump?
Speak unto an engineer, he's the guy that issues the certificate. Just don't speak about the longer (invisible) crank.

WOW --you guys sure have alot of regs to contend with there in OZ --glad I didnt have to face that --I wouldnt have my V8 conversion---

The rubber bumper car is the right one to use for ease of installation.
You do need to fit the remote oil filter adaptor.
Here's what it looks like
http://mgv8.homestead.com/bgeng.html
by the way, your existing torque bar under the gear box fits very nicely across the back of the V8 motor as a steady bar, the rover SD1 starter motor is virtually the same as the MGBV8 starter (and costs heaps less) . The alternator bracket off a rover P5 or P6 is identical to the MGBGV8 one, and is much cheaper. ditto the harmonic balancer.
Back to oil filter adaptors;
you can buy them locally at Adrian Akhursts http://www.mgaustralia.net.au/ . Adrians has the best extractors if you want to buy a set instead of make them. http://www.britishv8.org/MG/AdrianAkhurst.htm
or triump and rover spares in Adelaide,http://www.triumphroverspares.com.au/page.asp?parentid=5&parent2id=16
or try Andrew at MG workshops, pickering street, near monash Uni', or Neal at Plus four in Dandenong. They vary in price quite a bit. Try Andrew first, nice guy. He's done heaps of V8 conversions and let me look a fw over. http://maps.google.com.au/maps/place?oe=utf-8&rls=com.ubuntu:en-US:unofficial&client=firefox-a&um=1&ie=UTF-8&q=mg+workshops&fb=1&gl=au&hq=mg+workshops&hnear=Melbourne+VIC&cid=3625320730574158581

You don't mention what motor you are using, is it a 3.5, 3.9, 4.0, 4.2 or 4.5?
The oil filter adaptor (form the RV8) will only fit on the 3.5 front. The good news is that the 3.5 front will fit on all varieties of rover and range rover motor. You do have to use a simple spacer on the longer nosed crank of the later motors. You can buy a spacer, or I used a spare timing gear. I think, it's been a while. Whatever it was, it was right at hand and took 10 seconds.
I'm using a 4.0 motor and a 3.5 front cover off a range rover. I'm using a standard range rover water pump, which are longer than the expensive RV8 ones. The motor is set back as far and as low as I can get it to go without changing the rear bulk head. I used the stock Rubber bumper engine/body brackets like the original V8. Since then I've thought that I would have done much better to put some mounts onto the rear part of the front cross member. Near the rear cross member bolt. Neal at Plus four does something similar with his V8 conversions. That way you could get the engine down another inch at least, it would be lots easier to do and make getting the engine in and out easier. You would need to check with an engineer first in case there is some bizarre regulation to stop you deviating from standard.
There should not be a problem with the radiator in a post '76 rubber bumper. With my '75 I had to move the radiator further forward, so I moved it as far as possible. You should not have to move yours. You have to go to an electric fan, more efficient anyway.
Whether you make them or buy them you would be mad not to fit the RV8 style though the guards extractors. It fixes all the over heating issues for good, makes your starter motor more reliable and adds at least 10BHP. The holes in the inner guards let into the wheel arches which are a low pressure zone and just suck air out of the engine compartment, which lets more air in though the radiator.
With the RV8 extractors you probably won't need to change to a larger radiator. If you do go for a larger radiator Race Radiators in Dandenong can make you a "MGB V8 conversion" alloy radiator. They make them for Andrew at MG workshops, and Neil at plus four, all the time. I've got one , very nice.
I'm using a SD1 rover bottom balancer and pulley. This has a long neck and you can tuck the steering rack up under neatly. I'm using a rover/range rover air con' water pump pulley, which lines up. I've put 20mm spacer blocks under the alternator bracket to get that in line.
Gear box. Don;t know what you are using, Jeff Dellow in sydney make adaptor bell housings for toyota boxes. The toytoa boxes fit without altering the transmission tunnel. Very strong, compact and light. The W58 supra box with the longest gear lever position (D size, 21 inches total) is best. but you can use others. http://www.dellowauto.com.au/
Here are some links to V8 info
http://www.mgcars.org.uk/v8_conversions/mgb.html
http://www.mgcars.org.uk/v8_conversions/
http://www.britishv8.org/
check out all the conversions
http://www.britishv8.org/Photos-MG-Conversions.htm

The MGB Salibury diff' is very strong and supposed to be good to 300BHP. That said, I managed to break one just recently while doing a three point turn. So go easy in reverse! Mind you, I've never heard of anyone else doing this. In forward gears I have never had a problem. Originally the axle was designed for a small truck/van.

Here is the pulley set up radiator clearance. I had the water pump pulley machined 2mm wider to fit a wider belt, but it worked OK with a narrower belt.

I've got that oversized fan (huge overkill) behind the radiator, usually people put then in front.
If it is still an issue (with the motor further back) you can buy shorter nosed pumps for both rover and range rover. The latter are abit expensive though.
Here's a shot of the oil pump base,

Peter Sherman
Choice of Motor is EFI 4.4 ,gearbox is Celica 5 speed with the Dellow conversion kit already fitted.We had an engineer look at it before we started .His only concern is clearances around steering & exhaust.Thanks for all your help & info .It looks like you answered all my questions.I bought a new HD video camera today ,so I'll put together a video of the progress.Thanks for your help once again.
Roman

EFI, got your Fuel pump arrangement sorted Ramen?
I put a 1979-1980 MGB fuel gauge sender (part # ADU2318) into my existing tank. This sender has it's own fuel pickup so that gives you your pickup and a return line to the tank. I'm using a Pierburg universal rollervane carbie pump that has good suction and volume. This pump pulls though a very large filter (Kmart $20) and delivers to a high pressure Bosh pump. The large filter acts as an antisurge tank and the pierburg pump stops the low suction bosh pump cavitating and means you can put pumps and filter in the boot. Off the shelf parts and easy to do. In over 50,000km I've never had an issue with this set up. Setting up an intank pump is a bit more involved. There is a guy in America ,Todd Budde, that makes a terrific EFI tank, but getting it here undamaged might be a bit expensive.
I got the pumps from Petro-ject (Nunawading or Bewick, 0398737006) . Their part numbers are 12001 for the feeder pump $95 and 0580464070 for the bosh pump $140.

Plenum machining- You'll probably have to take a bit off the air intake. It depends on how low your engine is set. You can get 27 to 28 mm out of the trumpet tray if you weld up the side vacuum take offs. 16m off the bottom, no problem an 10 to 12 off the top. And another 5 to 7mm out of the top cover if necessary. Cost me $100 to get a machine shop to take 15mm off the bottom and 5 off the top (they also did the pulley for me) .

Been checking a few of my figures, it's been a while since I had it done. The issue is clearance under the throttle body. The distance between the tappet cover and the throttle. You have to remove the little water heater and plug the holes. Then you've got maybe 33 or 34mm you can come down. Also you can get 12mm off the top of the tray, I drove around like that for 6 months, no problem, but it gets very thin, virtually no side wall left and you need to be very careful doing up the cover bolts. 10mm would be a better mark to aim for. With the top cover be careful not to break into the stepper motor bottom hole.

Glenn T gets it all off the bottom. http://www.britishv8.org/Articles/Rover-Hot-Wire-EFI.htm

Also trumpet shortening.
remember to measure the difference in height between the middle four and the end trumpets, before you start machining.
The trumpets are all the same length and sit on different height shoulders. The end shoulders are going to disappear so you need to cut more off the end pairs.
I initially had the engine sitting up about half an inch higher so I took 16 plus 12 mm off a trumpet tray (which I've still got somewhere) and 7 off the top cover, and had to shorten the trumpets quite a bit. 18mm on the middle ones. Then much later I dropped the engine down another half inch. I had another tray machined less to take advantage of the extra room. However I reused the trumpets, which were about 7mm shorter than they needed to be. This gave extra clearance for air flow and a noticeable increase in power.

Not sure if were going to run the EFI set up.We have an what looks like a boat 4 barrel manifold.The machine work on the EFI set up is a bit of putting as were trying to build it to a budget & it looks like I'm going to blow the budget out the water.I saw how much MG workshops charge for a conversion.The 4B manifold we have is to tall,are there any 4B manifolds available as we have 2 Webers that go with the project.If there's a low rise manifold with a Weber adapter plate
This is a X USA car & had a RHD conversion.IS the steering shaft an issue with extractors on the RH side.As the motor sits on engine mounts from from MG workshops sitting on top of the original mounts.Is there a way of making in sit further down,or do you have to modify the originals.
Roman

Keep in mind it will cost you $100 for the welding and machining (may be less, phone around) to adapt the EFI plenum. Perhaps another 300 all up for the pumps fittings etc. I got the impression that you already had the EFI maniold, injectors hot wire etc. The car will run better and whole lot cheaper with EFI. Petrol is expensive and carbies can be very thirsty.
However, you might prefer to work with what you have, just cost it out carefully.

Have a look on http://www.britishv8.org/Articles/Rover-Hot-Wire-EFI.htm
scroll down a bit and you can see some engine mounts. Mine are virtually identical to those, except with some reinforcing webs.
I redrilled my holes further EDIT down (holes go down bracket goes up) rather than reweld like Glen did. If you have the genuine MGBGTV8 cast brackets there's nothing you can do. Andrew might take them back,and you can make your own.
If you stick to the orrigional rubber bumper body brackets, like most do, me as well, you will be finding that the real limit on getting the engine down is the wideth of the V in the V8. The lower you go, the wider the engine.
Neal at plus four in Dandenong locates his brackets further back from standard, near the rearmost front crossmember bolt. Much more room so you can drop the engine further down. He then squezes the rearmost exhaust pipe under the steering. I believe that it would be better, and lots easier to bolt a bracket on the crossmember it self. Just ignore the Rubber bumper brackets. A couple of big bits of cut down angle iron with a rubber mount in between would do it. Then the rear right hand exhaust, or pulley neck becomes the next issue, but an inch or so further down. This is a theory of course. Check with the bureaucrats first about that one.

Or you might find a rangerover intake manifold that has been adapted for a Holley, often done. However I don;t know much about setting up carbies, haven't done it . You might want to start a fresh thread to get attention. There are guys on this forum who know all there is to know.
if it is just the air filter that's the problem then this sort of arrangement might help
http://www.britishv8.org/MG/JohnMangles.htm

I'll start a new thread tomorrow when I have more pics & video of what we have to deal with.
Cheers