H4 Carb Modifications/adjustments for hi-po work.

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Feb 06, 2012 11:27:35
Filth and Greed Motors

I am preparing an MGB 1800 engine for my MGA in which I have heavily modified. Part of my challenge is to use the MGA original H4 carbs.

I have a couple questions for those of us who are way zoomier than I:

1) What is the recommended start needle for a 1890cc 130hp B engine? Using H4 Carbs of course
2) What, if any, are the appropriate internal Mods for the carb bodies?

I am using a good Sean Brown head, ported intake manifold, and the typical engine internal goodies.

I am confident in the H4 carbs with the use of teflon o-ring seals and other upgrades to eliminate the traditional leaks.

Part of this project is to make the MGA as close as possible to the stock looking car with a much more lively motor.

Feb 06, 2012 11:36:29
dickmoritz

Paul,

Your carbs will work just fine with the setup you describe, and I think that properly prepared carbs could buy you not only noticeable horsepower, but also better throttle response as well. That being said, if you really want to make 130+ horsepower, I'd urge you to send your carbs to Hap or Dave and have them professionally prepared. They've got knowledge and tricks that you could likely not duplicate yourself, and since breathing and compression are the two keys to power with our engines, I don't doubt that professionally-prepared carbs would be some of the best money you could spend on your engine.

Dick





Feb 06, 2012 12:09:20
Filth and Greed Motors

I am aware of some of the stuff that people do, I am looking for a guide to preparation that will get me to where I need to go without wasting time and money on stuff that doesn't matter.

I know that people bore the carbs to be a true 1 1/2 diameter, ramp the piston, smooth-out the insides preserving the bridge. I also have seen the throttle shafts 'wasted' to promote WOT flow.

I am going to port-match to the intake, but other than that, I was curious on what other things can be done to improve what I have.

Feb 06, 2012 12:44:00
Steve64B

Paul... if you want a book on the conceptual ideas of SU modification, get the Vizard book on preparing the A type motor. He has a chapter on modifications for SU carbs. Then do what Dick suggests and send them to Hap or Dave.

Feb 06, 2012 16:01:29
Speedracer

Street engine, right ? I can't speak for the H4s, but I used HS4 sin a pretty similar build and use #6, and started at .070" down from the bridge and so far thats where the carbs are still at, as for fuel mixture setting, with Fred now owning it, it cranks up good, runs like a bat out of hell.

Paul you used the County 1900cc pistons?

Feb 06, 2012 18:45:28
Filth and Greed Motors

Hap- Not quite 1900. I used the .060 county pistons after you said the .080 that you used were lots more money and probably not quite worth it. I got a killer deal on the machine work, I actually got my SCCA racer buddy to help me in his engine shop.

The head is with Sean Brown right now. I am going for 10:1 unless someone can convince me I can do more safely on pump gas. Harland sharp rollers, and a Crane cam @ 260/270 duration. Lightened 18v rods.

I wonder if I should be doing carb work to up-level my induction. I am scared of doing epoxy ramps on a street engine as my luck would have the epoxy breaking off and going through the engine.

Maybe the best thing is just to smooth stuff out and bevel the pistons. If I get real ambitions, maybe some throttle shaft work.

I will go with #6 needles per Hap.

Feb 07, 2012 05:06:19
Speedracer

Paul, so ok, a 1875cc engine, close enough. I tell you what I tell everyone that aprroaches this line of questioning with me, race engines and street engines have very little in common, they have two totally different task to perform. The race engine lives it life at top end of powerband at high rpm all the time, it can run like total crap at low rpms, and have no reasonable idle, who cares. the street engine on the other hand has to perform well at the bottom and middle of it's powerband, do certain performance item to street egnine that compromise bottom and middle power in street engine is always going to be a bad compromise in enjoyablity, you just can't drive a street car at near redline all the time, unless you want to end up in jail :)

I had a street MGB guy come to my shop the other day, he wanted his throttle shaft thinned for performance, but yet the entire rest of the powertrain was stock, in fact the throttle shafts he brought me were heavily worn to begin with, I talked him to letting me ream the carb bodies for new OS shafts and forget about the thinning of the shaft, it would be just small mod in otherwise stock engine, he would never notice a performance gain in, it would have been a total waste of his money. Now mind you racers will do small detailed mods, that don't produce a large power gain, but if you add up all those small gains, they made difference, ok with that train of thought, alot of those small gains cost a shitload of money, for example aftermarket connecting rods. Carrillo abnd Pauter rods are the king daddy mack, Cadillac aftermarket rods of the race world for our cars, the standards all others are held to, no reason to look elsewhere, unless you're trying to save a buck. Most MG racers think when they doff off big money for set of the high end connecting rods they are buying added strength, not even close to the fact, MG straight later rods are strong as hell (notice I said later rods, the early rods are garbage) the later rods if you polish the beam, lighten them a bit, use ARP rod bolt will happily stand up to race conditions as well as the aftermarket rods, infact a much better choice than the econo Asian made rods out there, so you wanna know the real reason MG racers use expensive Carrillo/Pauter rods, even alot of them don't know why, to save on rotating mass, the aftermarket rods are lighter than stock rods, or even modded stock rods, so the racers may spend a $1000 to get a very slight acceleration rate increase, mot 1 single HP to gained, not even measurable on a dyno.

OK, when I built my hot rod street engine for my MGB, I had at my full expertise at my disposal, all the trick I know and have learned, and many of them cost me, no more than my time, it would easy to say I could have did them all, like the race motors, but I only did the ones, I knew were good choices for the all out performance street engine. On my carbs for the 1900cc engine, I went with HS2, they would have better intial throttle response, in the tight mountian roads and better perform over HS6s or a Weber side draft, this isn't a drag car, or time trial car, I want good throotle response to get off that tight conrner and blast towrds the next one,and out run my buds. OK, now I got the HS4s what did I with them, I'm one the few guys in the US than can do damn near everyhting imaginable to SU carb, mod wise, so what choices would I make for my personal street car, I took the stock velocity stack and reworked it on the lathe, I opened it open the ID to exactly 1.5", then counter bore fastnered it to use the KN RU-44210 air filters and then also do so more radius and angle work on the stock v-stacks on the lathe to imporove it geting more air into it, then port match the carb throat to match what I had did to the v-stack, radiued the face of the piston a wee bit, and that was it, no shaft thinning or knife edging the throttle disc, all that could compromise idle, I didn't want, or need that on my steet engine for optimal performance. The next step wpould have been, had Fred not taken my street car from me ;) was to get it to chassis dyno and dial the fuel mixture and timing in for optimal peroforance, this is big time important, get what you got tuned to be it's best, otherwise, you're just dicking around.

Folks like Dave and I get called on by a group, I like to refered as the "obcessed", they want to do all sort of things, some making no sense at all to street engines, especially for the street. I have a MG friend, to say he is obcessed would be a huge understatment. He has a trick MG 1380cc street engine, he has H beam connecting rods and Moldex billet crank in this street engine, that my friends is obcession on steroids :), he does need either of those items to make his engine more reliable or faster, he just obcessed to the level of saying, "hey guess what I got in my motor", and I think those folks are looking for the "wow" reaction of the folks that they tell this too, I'm not "wowed", by this because I know better, I just think, "damn there's a guy who like to throw money away", and as long as they throw my way, fair enough :D


Moral of all this, don't dick around with the same mods we do on race carbs for your street car, they are not practical for even high end performance street engines, not even epoxy ramp in the carbs, who the hell knows what street gas would do to them, hardly something you would even notice, unless of course it became a problem. Remember what I said above, race engines and street engines have little to nothing in common, so don't mock race crowd on mods, it could very well a disappointing experience.


Disclamer: this response is chocked full of common sense, beware some people are allergic to common sense, so be advised. :devil:

Feb 07, 2012 05:33:32
Filth and Greed Motors

Quote: "
I opened it open the ID to exactly 1.5", then counter bore fastenered it to use the KN RU-44210 air filters and then also do so more radius and angle work on the stock v-stacks on the lathe to improve it getting more air into it, then port match the carb throat to match what I had did to the v-stack, radiused the face of the piston a wee bit, and that was it
"


Roger that.

Thanks as always for the detailed response. I will try to duplicate what you did with the velocity stacks and bevel the piston ever so slightly. I run an O2 sensor in the car to tune it so I will start with the #6 needle and go from there.

Feb 07, 2012 05:40:56
Speedracer

Quote: "

I run an O2 sensor in the car to tune it so I will start with the #6 needle and go from there.
"


Well the O2 readings are important, and it's great that you have that on your street car (tu), thats the #1 info you would get on a chassis dyno anyway. Tune the car at 4th gear WOT, via the O2 readings, the rest should take care of itself.

Feb 07, 2012 07:14:36
fast-MG.com

I "commonly sense" that Hap needs to cut back on his coffee consumption!:devil::D

If it was mine, for the street I think I would consider "stock" H6s made to look like H4s. "Just sayin"!:)-D

Feb 07, 2012 08:37:54
Speedracer

Quote: "
I "commonly sense" that Hap needs to cut back on his coffee consumption!:devil::D

If it was mine, for the street I think I would consider "stock" H6s made to look like H4s. "Just sayin"!:)-D
"



Thats good for wide open spaces, not so good for tight mountain work.


Hey big boy, don't pretend you don't know what "obcessed crowd" I'm referring to, those are your peeps too ;)

Feb 07, 2012 11:24:56
Filth and Greed Motors

I could go with H6, maybe as a later upgrade. Maybe even HS6.

Just a little background on my little secret project: My Dad has this MGA that he and I restored in 2003. The engine is an unbelievably anemic 1500 that was line-bored incorrectly and basically has no rear seal. At idle, oil literally pours out of the back of the engine. It's been this way for about 10,000 miles. At road speed the scroll seal can keep up and we don't lose oil. It is a frickin mess under the car though.

As some of you know, I sold my restored Morris Minor on bring a trailer earlier in 2011. I have used some of those "capital regeneration" funds to make an engine to fix this oil leaker in the MGA.

Un unbeknownst to my father, I am building somewhat of a hotrod street motor from an MGB block that I had--actually a good engine when I started with a std/std crank. I have done all of the normal tricks and secrets to make something a little "surprising" to my father when he tries out the car with the oil leak fixed... all he thinks I am doing is fixing the oil leak with a lip seal. I am doing that among many other things. Muwhahaha.

County Brand +.060 pistons
18V lightened/polished rods.
1967 ish 18GB block.
fully blanced and trimetal bearings.
ported oil pump.
P&P head and intake from Sean Brown
Harland Rollers/shims/18v tappets/tubular pushrods
a tame-ish Crane 270/260 cam, adjustable cam gear
shooting for 10:1 compression
"advanced" distributor

I have a 67 MGB back plate that should fit up to the 3sync in the MGA. I also have a 67 mgb electronic tach that will fit in the MGA to take care of the mechanical tach drive.

Other than a certain rasp to the exhaust, he’ll have no idea until he dips down the go pedal.

Feb 07, 2012 11:37:31
dickmoritz

Paul,

It's a wonderful thing you're doing for your Dad, and I have no doubt it will bring great joy to him and to you. When my Dad retired I surprised him with a 1957 Thunderbird -- wide whites, skirts, porthole hardtop, etc. My only instruction to him was to wear out the tires. Over 25 years he went through three sets of tires -- took it to the store, to church, to the golf course, even got his first and only traffic ticket -- for drag racing with a couple of kids in a Jeep. ::o He won the race but lost to the cop... :X

Dad is no longer around; he passed away two years ago, at 91. But I will always have photos and wonderful memories of the time he spent driving that car and the times we spent together tinkering with it.

I wish you similar joy and memories in your endeavor...

Dick

Feb 07, 2012 12:46:51
fast-MG.com

Paul, the 1967 MGB backplate may be an issue with the MGA trans due to starter location.:S

You may be able to machine the MGA backplate for an MGB seal although I've not actually done it.:)-D

Feb 07, 2012 14:52:17
Filth and Greed Motors

My MGA is a 1500, but it was in the last month of 1500 production so it's mostly a 1600. I believe the starter position is the same MGA 1600 till MG went leyland.

I always forget. Early MGAs had a high mount starter, then the moved to the low mount? I have whatever is the later version.

I have a D-type overdrive sitting on the shop floor, but I wont install that without collaboration with my father, as I will have to tear-drop the tranny tunnel and alter the transmission mount. I even have a spare transmission tunnel for this project. I am trying to find a sent of helical cut close ratio gears before I rebuild it--maybe next winter :^)

Feb 07, 2012 15:43:14
fast-MG.com

I believe you will find that the early 5-main MGB has a backplate different than any MGA.

Feb 07, 2012 16:21:27
Speedracer

Paul, the MGB engine into the MGA chassis stuff, I worked with a handful of guys doing this and for sure seems to be different trains of thought on what to do when you get to the tranny, one guys in my car club did it,and did what Bob White (jomama here on the MGEx) had done several time, used a MGB 3 syncro tranny with a MGA tailhousing bolted on the MGB gearbox, I know thats one way of doing it, ask Bob White about this if it interest you. Somtimes the different methods I hear these guys talking about can get confusing, they are skinning this cat a couple different ways.

Feb 08, 2012 05:14:09
joemamma

Using the 3 main MGB bellhousing case also allows for a MGB clutch assembly. There is about 3/8 difference between the bolt holes of a late mga starter position and a early MGB up to 1967. I did have a MGA backing plate bored out once to accept a MGB rear seal. My machinist advised it was a very hard material to cut. I purchased Fred McConnells "Mule" 76 MGB. .060 over and around 10 to 1 with Hilton HS4 carbs. VP12 cam etc,. Fred said he thought it had #6 needles. The car idles fine and I do not think is to rich at idle. If to rich they normally start dropping RPMs at idle. With this setup the exhaust is very black and sooty. The car performs very well. I am wondering if its too rich at higher RPMs. I am going to try standard needles when the weather warms a bit. If you go with the MGb trans case the top 2 bolts get real tight to the bulkhead. I would cut back on the bell and use shorter bolts. Sounds like a fun project and will really wake that beast up! Bob

Feb 08, 2012 06:46:01
fast-MG.com

It's not difficult for me to supply a "hybrid" aluminum backplate to mate your early 3-main MGB engine to your early MGA trans. About $250.:)-D

Feb 08, 2012 14:40:43
Filth and Greed Motors

Shit. You guys are right.

I thought the later MGA bellhousing was the same as the early MGB. Wrong. They moved the starter down a little in the early MGBs. My plan will not work. I will have to modify the MGA plate to accept the MGB seal.

Later on, I will switch to an MGB D-type OD tranny, but for starters I need to use the MGA transmission.

I have an early MGB 3-synchro belhousing but it is on the OD tranny that I have. I dont want to take apart a transmission for this little project.

And to make matters worse, apparently the MGB clutch doesnt really fit in the MGA bellhousing with the new style B&B pressure plate.

Feb 08, 2012 17:08:56
fast-MG.com

Paul,my earlier post should have said "early 5-main to early MGA". Sorry if I confused!:S

Feb 08, 2012 18:17:38
Filth and Greed Motors

Dave- I think that might be a good solution and a fair deal too . However, in reading Barney's recent documentation on issues with the "new" borg and beck clutch, I am very worried I won't be able to fit the pressure plate in the MGA bell housing--apparently it hits something.

Feb 09, 2012 03:58:03
Speedracer

Quote: "
Dave- I think that might be a good solution and a fair deal too . However, in reading Barney's recent documentation on issues with the "new" borg and beck clutch, I am very worried I won't be able to fit the pressure plate in the MGA bell housing--apparently it hits something.
"


I heard thoase guy talk about grinding inside the bellhousing to make clearence, I've also heard them talk about using a special NOS pressure plate.

Feb 09, 2012 07:02:26
Filth and Greed Motors

Do any of you guys have a used "old syle" borg and beck heavy duty pressure plate? I need something that is in decent condition. I used my last one up on my MGB GT.

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