Hydrogen generators, run your car on water?

Has anyone looked into the Hydrogen generators (machines that change water into hydrogen and oxygen gas through electrolysis) you add to your car to boost your MPG? Apparently, they are rather common in some countries. China has over 400 companies that manufacture them but for some reason they are not allowed to ship them stateside. People claim a 10 to 50% increase in gasoline mileage with these units. Others claim they have run their cars on just the hydrogen oxygen fuel. Which would mean that the car ran on water.

Theoretically, yes, you can. But there's a major flaw. You need something the size of a entire car with a dedicaed powerplant to produce even a significant amount of hydrogen. With those "plans" on the internet (which was thoroughly dissected in my physical chemistry class) you might gain an extra mile a year. Pure snake oil. Go watch Mythbusters if you don't believe me; they busted that myth with a sledgehammer.

if you plan on using electrolysis to create the H2, then you need is sizable on-board source of electricity to do it. Plus the fact that water is heavy and to carry enough water to convert ti H2 to go any distance would be a sizable load I'd think. just don't think there is a magic pill there. Now, if there were stations located that created the H2 from local water and on site electricty for you so all you had to do was carry the H2 as fuel it might be plausible

I looked on the Mythbusters site but couldn't find a episode on hydrogen generators. I like their show, but I think its plausible that just cause they couldn't do it, doesn't mean it cant be done. I've read that the Chinese are dumping a ton of money into Hydrogen generator research. When you see welders in production that run off of hydrogen generated through electrolysis of water, and the size of the converter,It makes one think. These are real items that function. That welder isn't run off snake oil, its run off water. it really makes one wonder about how far off is it that we'll be able to run an engine off hydrogen generated on demand from water. Even if it was a unit to large for an automobile, What about running a generator to power your house. No disrespect to your physical chemistry class professor, but just because you guys couldn't generate enough hydrogen in class doesn't make hydrogen generators a dead issue, it just means that perhaps, with more research and development we could one day see a unit that will run a car off water.

David Abbott Wrote:

I recently saw cut-a-way shots of some fuel cell city buses going into service. The use the area over the passengers was used for storing hydrogen in compressed tanks. But what I've seen vehicles don't create hydrogen.

I expect fleet vehicles to lead the way. If for no other reason but for the refueling infrastructure, and a quicker economic path to economies of scale.

I think this month's Design News had a good article. Alas I already tossed my copy away. Fuel cells are a when, not an if.

http://waterpoweredcar.com/hydrobooster2.html

Nearly identical to the ones that both my class and Mythbusters built. I promise I won't laugh if you put one in your car.

Browns gas is Hydrogen and oxygen. During electrolysis Hydrogen gas rises from the negative cathode, and oxygen gas collects at the positive anode. The closer the anode and cathode the more gas produced. And I've read that certain frequency modulations speed up the gas formation.
Here is a link to one of the companies making Oxy-hydrogen (or browns gas if you prefer) welders. http://www.sra-solder.com/ww.htm..... What, you didn't think they really existed? You have something against hydrogen? Personally, I believe that it wont be long before a "Browns Gas" generator is developed that will generate enough gas to run a modified gasoline electrical generator. And if that happens it wont be long till we can run a car from one.

David Abbott Wrote:

yea, I don't think it is an issue of being possible but whether it is feasible. To generate H2 from water it takes electricity. The more H2 needed the more electricity and water is needed. You will have to come up with a way to have lots of electricity available to do it on a car. I really think H2 will be the future but I think it will be in the form of an infrastructure like what we use for gas now. Local H2 generators scattered around the countryside would have access to the needed power and water to generate H2 and store it for refueling cars. Pretty much like using LP gas to power your car, as well.

Another way would be to have home generators, where your tank would be filled over nite while you sleep and your car would be ready to run 40 or 50 miles in the morn

big trucks often have hydrogen generators installed. They provide
a small amount of hydrogen from the air, and increase milage by about 10-15%. The downside is their converters are expensive at $1-4K.

Steve, how do they work? What method of generation?

It's not running your car on H2 but it is along the H2 line and kinda interesting
http://hytechapps.com/
I am still cynical about this claim, though, and will stay that way until I know how it works.

BTW, I've been approached by someone who has a black box that can increase the BTU value of natural gas without using any energy what so ever(so he says). He will not tell me the contents of the box nor will he say how it works but he wants me to test and prove that it works. I said that for a fee I would test it but would not guarantee that it works without knowing why or how it works. I designed a test set-up but the guy is so secretive about his invention that he won't bring it to me to test. He just calls and says that's it's( the test program) coming together and the tests will start soon. It's been two years now and no magic black box yet.

Anyone want to invest in a magic black box sight unseen with no proof that it does anything but separate a fool and his money?

Gerry do you mean like these devices that are supposed to align the molecules in gas so that a car runs better and more economically??

Question. As we are talking abt an area I have littel knowledge in I'll ask what is probably a stupid question. It seems that most of you are refering to using electricy to break the water down in to H2 and O, (seems silly to me to use electricity to create tow components that will then be used to create electricity), is there any other methods of breaking the water down to creat the H2 & O that may be a more viable method??

damn my typing is getting worse not better. Maybe I should stop using Mavis Beacon Typing tutor.

Simon,

<<Maybe I should stop using Mavis Beacon Typing tutor.<<


Did you get the Eubonics edition by mistake?

Simon, there's only a couple of ways that I know about for breaking down a substance into it's elements. Electrolysis is one. It is real similar to electroplating where you have an electrolyte(water) and an anode and a cathode. When electricity is applied to the anode/cathode, the water breaks down and O2 bubbles to the surface at one and H2 comes to the surface at the other. Been too many years to remember which is which. Problem is to do it on any reasonable scale takes alot of electricity. The second way is by supercooling. By using a coldbox with temps down around -250 degrees F you can condense the components from air. Where I used to work this method was used to separate O2, N2 and others from air to be compressed and used in other processes. Have no idea if this will work on a liquid without the liquid turning into a solid first. Only time I've seen this done was with gas such as air

Now I suspect that use electrolysis to make H2 for running an engine would take more energy that you make with the separated components. I don't believe you will be able to use battery power to use electrolysis to make H2, then us the H2 to move the car PLUS run a generator to recharge your battery. Kinda like a dimes worth of work from a nickel. Any time there is a conversion of one form of energy to another, It's my understanding that there is a loss, thus preventing perpetual energy

The Hydrogen-Oxygen bond in water is pretty strong. It takes quite a bit of energy to break it.

Hydrogen as a combustible fuel is very low grade. Low energy content. Takes one hellova lot to do what a gallon of gas can do. Natural gas is much denser than H2 but still takes nearly twice as much as gasoline.

Hydrogen needs to be stored under pressure. The practicality of producing atmospheric pressure H2 in quantities to feed a recip engine is pretty low on the scale of duo-able.

BMW is the only mfg I know of who is seriously investigating H2 as a fuel for a recip engine. Others seem to focus on using it as a fuel in an electricity-generating fuel cell and as I understand, so far it takes more ommph to get a point of input than they get in terms of output. I.e. it is not efficient at all.

On balance the enrgy equation comes out in the negative.
In other words it takes more energy to generate hydrogen from water than is liberated from burning the hydrogen.

This is not a new idea and was extensively discussed in another forum populated mainly by engineers: www.eng-tips.com

Go to these links for the details:
thread71-158099 and also thread71-163254

Pete.

David Abbott Wrote: