Is Lightening the Flywheel worth it?

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Apr 25, 2007 07:05:04
JMoore

Soon, I'll pull my engine to fix the leaks and replace the clutch. Some guys have suggested I lighten the flywheel. My car is a driver, but I do enjoy stepping on the gas and driving it spiritedly!

I have a spare engine, with an old grungy flywheel, I was thinking I could have that one lightened, balanced and resurfaced so that when the time came I could swap it out with the new clutch. My local engine shop doesn't doesn't have a lathe, but suggested an industrial machine shop one town over. I'm not sure of the cost.

Like I said, my car is a street car, so is it worth taking off 5-6#'s? I've heard it's like adding HP, but the Burgess book is silent on that. What should it cost? Any ideas?

Apr 25, 2007 07:15:47
txbrill

John:

I can't advise about the cost but Hap did lighten mine with bottom end rebuild I am not quite sure how many lbs. he took off but the car definatley revs quicker than before. It also returns to idle quicker unlike some I have not had any stalling problems and have not noticed any down side. I would reccommend doing it whole heartly since you are taking it apart anyway.





Apr 25, 2007 07:17:46
71EmmaG

John,

Hap started a thread about this awhile back. Search the archives and I think you'll find his thread. IIRC, It's pretty hard on a lathe and the net return is not worth all the work.

I'm thinking the next time you pull that motor you may as well drop that Rover V8 in the B :)

HTH,
Bryan

Apr 25, 2007 07:23:07
David Kiehna

So you are pulling the motor for a second time since MG2006? :(

Apr 25, 2007 07:28:25
JMoore

David Kiehna Wrote:

Quote: "
So you are pulling the motor for a second time since MG2006?
"


Um yes, I was penny wize but pound foolish and reused the clutch. I seem to have some weird vibrations in there I need to investigate. Plus, I've got a horrible leak at the front of the engine, that I figure will be easier to address with the engine out. :(

Apr 25, 2007 07:29:18
JMoore

You're right Bryan! A V8 would be sweet! I just read a few of the thread, I'm not sure what to think quite yet.

Apr 25, 2007 07:29:48
cgill

Here's the link to the thread Bryan mentioned...

http://www.mgexperience.net/phorum/read.php?1,473256,page=1

Apr 25, 2007 07:35:53
BritishV8

It's NOT like adding horsepower. It's all about smoothness, throttle response, and delivery of torque.

Quote: "I'm thinking the next time you pull that motor you may as well drop that Rover V8 in the B"

Now you're talking! A basically stock MGB doesn't have a lot of "extra" torque to begin with, but when you switch to a torque-monster like the Buick/Rover V8 it's a whole different story. After converting my B, I drove about 8 years with a stock Buick flywheel and then lathe turned it down. The Buick flywheel was especially heavy (compared for example to a TR8 flywheel) because it was made to store energy for getting a four-door sedan off the line, and also to provide smoothness in a car with little pretension of sportiness. In a lightweight MGB, the same flywheel was way too heavy. The lightened flywheel makes my car a lot more fun to drive.

With a stock MGB engine, I'd probably not mess with the flywheel.

Apr 25, 2007 07:47:14
71EmmaG

John,

I hope I didn't light a fire..... though this is what my long term goal of buying a Landy would be. Pull the V8 out when a major rebuild is in order, find a project MG, drop a Tdi into the Landy, and make the project MG your V8 sleeper car. Just living vicariously through you, John :)

P.S. Don't let your wife read this....

P.S.S - Sorry to hijack your thread.. I seem to be good at that today.

Apr 25, 2007 07:49:18
twentyover

71EmmaG Wrote:

Quote: "
John,
Hap started a thread about this awhile back. Search the archives and I think you'll find his thread. IIRC, It's pretty hard on a lathe and the net return is not worth all the work.
Bryan
"


I think waht Hap said was it wasn't worth HIS time to lighten flywheels, since there is an opportunity cost (how much wear on his equipment vs profit margin on using the lathe for other uses.)

I've run lightened flywheels and, in my opinion are worth it.

A number of years ago Vizard did a study on a 300 hp or so mustang, lightened a (IIRC) 32 lb flywheel about 8 lb. he then added horespower so he had the same acceleration with a higher hp motor and a heavy wheel and a lower horsepower and a heavier wheel. The lightened flywheel accelerated IN FIRST GEAR like a car with an additional 40 horesepower. Effect was be progressively less in 2, 3, and 4th gears. This is functionally equivalent to using lighter weight wheels and tires

Lots of other variable (where was the weight taken out, etc)

I've said it before, in a street car i'd use a 3 synchro ring gear, cut the 4 synchro flywheel down to 3 synchro diameter, and use a rear engine plate that's kind of a combination of 3 sync and 4 sync to get a 16 lb wheel with ALL the weight out of the outer diameter.

Someone could make a profit on this if they wanted to....

Apr 25, 2007 07:54:47
JMoore

cgill Wrote:

Quote: "
Here's the link to the thread Bryan mentioned...
"



Chris,

Great thread! Lots to consider.

Apr 25, 2007 07:57:15
carlheideman

We often take 4 lbs off of the outside of flywheels and bring them to about 17lbs--our local machine shop does it for about $35. It makes a noticable difference in throttle response without affecting launch or idle characteristics. I've driven street cars with ultra-light flywheels (10-12lbs) and they don't launch well at all.

--Carl

Apr 25, 2007 08:09:36
JMoore

carlheideman Wrote:

Quote: "
We often take 4 lbs off of the outside of flywheels and bring them to about 17lbs--our local machine shop does it for about $35. It makes a noticable difference in throttle response without affecting launch or idle characteristics. I've driven street cars with ultra-light flywheels (10-12lbs) and they don't launch well at all.
--Carl
"



Thanks Carl! That price is definitely right.

BTW - here is a short list of my engine mods:

Recently rebuild
.030 over pistons
265 Delta Cam
Sean Brown P&P Head
Polished intake
HS4 SU's with AAA needles w/K&N
Schlemerized Recurved Eurospec 45 D


Apr 25, 2007 08:48:17
JMoore

FYI - I just took a spare Flywheel to a local industrail machine shop, they are going to do it for $34-40. Then I'll have my engine machine shop resurface and balance it. Keep you posted.

Apr 25, 2007 13:20:20
Tom Bedenbaugh

John,I'm sure you reolize you need to have the flywheel, crank, crank pully, and clutch pressure plate all balanced together.

Apr 25, 2007 15:42:27
max71

Hate to be a party pooper but since you're spending dough and getting advice here maybe its time to renew your membership and support Skype and all he's done for all of us. I renewed again even though money is tight around here as well. All the help on this board is priceless.

Apr 25, 2007 15:56:38
JMoore

max71 Wrote:

Quote: "
Hate to be a party pooper but since you're spending dough and getting advice here maybe its time to renew your membership and support Skype and all he's done for all of us. I renewed again even though money is tight around here as well. All the help on this board is priceless.
Edited 1 times. Last edit at 04/25/07 05:44PM by max71.
"


Yeah, It's a shame I've never done anything to support the site. :eyeroll: Bought a T-shirt yet?

Apr 25, 2007 16:13:47
max71

I'm not saying you don't do anything to support it. I just remember you saying you didn't have the money to renew even though you spent money on your car and as soon as you had the money you would. I guess I shouldn't have said anything. Its up to you. It probably stems from several clients who haven't paid their bills and cried they have no money or some "tragedy" struck and then I find out they're buying toys and such.

Forget I said anything.

Apr 25, 2007 19:22:12
mac townsend

IMHO this is verging on out of line. But let me explain this position. You will note I suddenly joined as gold though nearly went bankrupt last year. Ther was a rush of this a month or so ago<G>

Yes, Skye needs revenue to support the site. But it is up to every individual to deal with his/her own situation. And I think Skye's not in bad condition due to MGE.

Let me continue with my obtuse tale and proposition:

I used to be deeply involved in SCCA regional publications 45+ years ago. (even hold a couple "best" awards for large region pubs).

One time in the mid sixties I ran a piece that talked about being able to afford to go racing. Realize, in 1965 it cost jack shit to go racing.(relative, but absolute too.) Entry was $35. You could really use a stock car but prepared cost more. Whether it was "affordable" or not depended on how you wished to arrange one's other life expenditures. Kid's school, medical bills, pet bills, new house, new car project, braces on tommy, whatever.

Sacrifice one, empowers the other. Something our legislators cant quite come to grips with. (you should hear the teachers "everything to education" vs the healthcare folks (everything to healthcare" vs WTF Salmon Preservers (Everything to preserve the salmon) etc here in California. EACH TOTALLY DENIES THE VALUE OF THE OTHER. Each want 100% of any budget increase. Each should be taken out and friggen spanked in public for being idiots! But I digress...).

MGE is a valuable forum. I resisted joining because I didn't want an amount taken from my account at times I could not control. Given impetus, I found I could do a one-time dump for the year's dues and did it when the money was available. In January I could not have done it. I see there are other options now.

In an online community, and I've participated in them for over 20 years, we should judge a person by their contributions not by their bank account.

Please, I am not wanting to blunt your enthusiasm. Nor demean in any way. Just expressing a view a little divergent from that expressed in your message.




max71 Wrote:

Quote: "
I'm not saying you don't do anything to support it. I just remember you saying you didn't have the money to renew even though you spent money on your car and as soon as you had the money you would. I guess I shouldn't have said anything. Its up to you. It probably stems from several clients who haven't paid their bills and cried they have no money or some "tragedy" struck and then I find out they're buying toys and such.
Forget I said anything.
Edited 1 times. Last edit at 04/25/07 04:17PM by max71.
"


Apr 25, 2007 19:50:31
DB Wood

I'm going to try doing it on my neighbor's lathe. I had an old crank that I cut the rear main journal off and faced. His lathe is a 5HP 3 phase monster that definitely has the poop to do the job. I talked with Hap a week or so ago about the way to go about it so I'm going to give it a shot. I have two flywheels to practice on so I'm not worried about the results on the first one.
Tom brought up a good point about balancing it afterword. I have a .010-.010 crank that I'm going to have balanced anyway. Once that is zeroed then the flywheels can be done and should be good on any balanced crank. The crank has to be done first though.

Apr 25, 2007 20:15:50
cfrench

I remember John stepping up to the plate and taking on the very hard job of coordinating the last tee shirt order. Wicked easy to write a check for many but to take on MANY hours of time is another.

Apr 25, 2007 20:29:52
max71

Let's just forget it. I explained myself. I know there's lots of people who aren't members at all yet their contributions cannot have a price placed on them.

This stemmed from another thread that talked about it and John mentioned he needed to do it. Let's drop it. I don't want to polarize anything here. I consider you all friends and have the interest of the board at heart.

Apr 25, 2007 20:45:20
RSS

Don't ya just hate it when everybody's so wrong at the same time they're so right?

Seriously - I think we've all said things with the best of intentions that just came out poop.

I've learned so much from you guys that nothing can repay, and I can only assume you've learned from others here as well.

Poop happens.

R.

Apr 25, 2007 20:48:32
DB Wood

John,
You've done a lot to support the site. The enthusiasm that you have is infectious. I know that I have caught that same spirit and have put my money where my mouth is, in part due to your participation. We all do what we can to contribute and sometimes we are in better shape financially than other times but we all have the same thing in common, addiction to LBCs. Thanks for doing the T-shirt thing and can't wait to wear one. Look forward to having a pint with you someday. Maybe MG2009 in Colorado?

Apr 25, 2007 20:58:01
max71

Oh brother. So suddenly I'm a John Moore hater? Please. Why don't you read my endless posts complimenting and thanking John and sharing help. Let's not draw an unnecessary line. I already got one hate email that was really uncalled for.

Dear John Moore. Love ya buddy. :)

You know this couldn't ended with a simple "Hey Gary, yeah I know I said that but I think the T-shirt help compensated". End of story.

Apr 25, 2007 21:04:32
mac townsend

Love ya. And yer lizard! (or is that a Geico?<G>)

Apr 25, 2007 21:05:23
max71

Chameleon.

Apr 25, 2007 21:39:49
DB Wood

Gary,
No offense intended, sorry if it sounded that way.

Apr 26, 2007 03:52:02
Speedracer

What Greg Fast said is correct, I don't do it anymore because for me it's a job that really is waste of my time and taxes my lathe for the money it nets, no offense, but I have bigger fish to fry. It's a worthwhile thing to do (flywheel lightening) as part of a bigger picture, meaning if you'e going to build a performance engine and are doing many things, then doing this is a good thing to do as part of that package. I'll probably end up doing it again, when I get time to put a new motor on my lathe, I think my motor just got old and weak and this is why the failure happen, but only for the customer that gets whole burrito, meaning I'm building you a performance engine.
I don't lighten V8 cranks on my lathe anymore either, plain and simple the guys don't want to pay the worth of the job. It's nothing persoanl it just the way I do it, it just not a well enough paying job for the time invested, I make better money doing something else, and the light bill does come every month :)

Ok, now I would like to talk about engine balancing. Tom B made a comment about getting your bottom end components balanced together. I don't think he actually meant together, but it is a common practice with some shops, I elaborate more on this. Sometimes a engine builder/machinist will balance mutiple components at one time, this is a very bad idea, easier for the machinist, maybe cheaper for you, but a bad idea overall. We practice something called zero balance and have for some time, meaning everything is balanced and balanced separately. Example, say you want to have your crank, flywheel and harmonic balancer all balanced and the machinist tells you he will bolt all three together and balance that way, then for him its quicker, but for you it could be problem in the future if any of those three items are taken out of the equation. First off a inline motor like ours does not have to simulate rod weights with bob weights, just V motors have to do this. Ok say you have the three balanced together, the machinist can remove material from any of the three components to acheive overall balance in those items, but say a year down the road your harmonic balancer rubber takes a crap for example and you need to replace it, you're screwed, because removing any of the three items balanced together out of the equation throws everything off and you could end up being worse of than factory balnceing to begine with, so that's why balancing things together is a bad idea.

Balancing your flywheel, harmonic balancer or crankshaft all require a rotating balancing machine, balancing your pistons and rods is a static balance meaning they are not rotated, but pistons and rods are static balanced quite differently. With the piston, just put them on a scale that measures in atlaeast in grams or even tenths of grams, just get them to all weight as close as you can to each other, now rods are totally different ballgame and are not for most backyard guys, you need a rod trapeese, you have three things on connecting rod to balance, top end weight, bottom end weight and overall weight, if you're not experienced in doing this or don't have the right equipment, then you could do more harm than good, never, ever just overall static balance your rods, even if they weight all the same overall you may have top or botom weights that get to the same overall weight very differently and end up being way worse than factory balancing. Balancing engine components is a good thing overall, it comes into play in a race motor as a necessity because of the high constant RPMs, but street engine that won't be zinging along above 6 grand all the time can benefit as well, although not a necessity, most folks comments on a fully balanced engine will be that it feels like a much smoother running engine. I once read here where someone said the factory does not balance your engine compnents, that's hogwash, they balance everything, just not too as tight of a spec as you can, for exmaple if I had to guess what factory balance spec were on a MGB crank from doing them, I would say three grams or less, when I balance your crank, I normally get within a half of a gram, so all you are doing is tightening the specs.


OK, last but not least, any of you that have taken the time to read book like Vizard's books, will know lightening any rotating component will not net you even one single horsepower, but it will increase your accelaration rate. In the race engine we get everything down as light as we can reliably, we lighten rods or buy a aftermarket rods like a Carrillo, we wedge lighten the cranks, we pay around with custom piston design that may run lower compression heights, and use smaller diameter pins and different pin metal type to overall lessen the piston/pin weight. I just designed a MGB race piston to run a .750" pin instead of the .812" pin, pins are heaviest part of this component, going with a smaller diameter taper bored pin could easily lower the overall weight a good 30-50 grams per piston, that's alot in the overall weight of a piston/pin. Take two identical race cars with engines prepared the same, say both weight exactly the same and both have the same exact horsepower, but one has spent alot of time and money to lower it's engine's rotating mass, the lighter rotating massed engine will accelerate quicker, given a straight is a given length, then the lighter rotating mass car will reach maxiumum velocity quicker and cover the same distance in a shorter amount of time. The lighter rotating mass car will always under the same exact conditons exit a corner quicker than the car with more rotating mass. This can go on to alot more than just internal engine components with things like extreme light weight wheels etc.

Here's a picture of 1275 wedge lighten racing crankshaft I did, we remove around three pounds off this crank, we done alot of these over the years. The crankshaft is on a Hines computerized rotating balancing machine, I get to use this machine with the machine shop that does my boring and line boring. This is by far the nicest balancing machine I ever used, fiquire if you had to buy this machine brand new you'd be looking at aprox. $60K. I would never live long enough to break even if I owned one of these machine, so lucky for me, these guys rent me the use of this one.

Apr 26, 2007 04:52:36
JMoore

Hap,

Thanks SO much for the detailed explanation on balancing! I really appreciate that and it makes me feel better to know I don't have to pull the whole lump a part again. I REALLY don't what to do that. I just wanna fix my oil leaks, put in the new clutch and drive!

Hey Gary, yeah I know I said that but I think the T-shirt help compensated! :) Too bad I can join Peter on an epic drive across the US and meet you at MG2007! I would like to see Max and meet you in person!

Apr 26, 2007 05:53:15
BumbleB74

Well Hap, looks like I waited too long to send you my flywheel to lighten!

Very good read as always.....

Apr 26, 2007 07:10:42
max71

John. I was hoping you'd be there. Nui's seen so many pictures of your car and engine bay! No chance?

Apr 26, 2007 07:31:34
200mph

Steering this thread back on course (I hope)...

John, I agree with Carl that lightening the flywheel IS like adding horsepower. Not in an actual sense, because as British V8 pointed out, your engine develops no more power than it did before.
.
For any car to accelerate quicker, you need to do one of two things: increase torque, or reduce weight. The most important weight to reduce is the rotating mass that the engine has to turn. Lighter flywheels and lighter road wheels and tires will help your car accelerate faster. They will make it FEEL like it has more horsepower because the car has less work to do (less weight to move).
.
However, too much "lightening" is much like too much beer. The purpose of the flywheel is to smooth out the engine's power pulses so that it runs and idles smoothly. An excessively light flywheel makes for a very difficult car to drive on the street... lurching, stalling from standing start, and premature clutch wear from trying to cope with it all.
.
Follow Carl's recommendations and you'll enjoy the improvement.
Mike

Apr 26, 2007 08:45:32
JMoore

Thanks Mike! The P&P'd head really likes to rev, especially in the power band. Additional acceration would be great. I told the machine shop to try and take off 4-5#'s. We'll see.

Gary, it would be trip of a life time! But I don't see it happening. Even tho' I have the time, hopefully, I'll be going back to work soon. I've enjoyed my little vacation, but I'm anxious to find another job.

Apr 26, 2007 10:28:18
max71

Hap. That was the most comprehensive explanation of balancing I've read. Thank you so much for taking the time to share that knowledge. Its changed my thinking on balancing. Wish I had read this a year ago...

Apr 26, 2007 19:52:54
Speedracer

200mph Wrote:

Quote: ".
However, too much "lightening" is much like too much beer. The purpose of the flywheel is to smooth out the engine's power pulses so that it runs and idles smoothly. An excessively light flywheel makes for a very difficult car to drive on the street... lurching, stalling from standing start, and premature clutch wear from trying to cope with it all. Mike "


I'll play the devil's advocate here :), we of course alwyas used lightweight flywheel s on the race cars, on the Huffaker MGB we used a steel billet unit that is only 8.5lbs, on the Spridget race cars we played with 6-8 pounds flywheels in both aluminum and steel. Putting a lightweight flywheel on street car had really never crossed my mind, until I did the slime green motor a year ago. This customer already had the Fidanza aluminum flywheel for the 4 syncro OD gearbox. He had no complaints with it so it went back on his new engine. The 68-80 4 syncro tranny Fidanza flywheel weights 9 pounds and I put a good 50 miles on this car test driving it after the rebuild, it behaved much better than I thought, no clutch slipping, no wierd idle, just pretty much took off and went like stink. That kinda changed my mind about aluminum flywheels on street cars. We recently decided to use the 3 syncro 10.5 lbs Fidanza aluminum flywheel on Andy's Panam car because we picked up a deal on one, based on how the green slime motor behaved with one, I think it will make the car quicker in the speed stages and still be very liveable everywhere else .

Apr 26, 2007 20:27:03
JMoore

I got my flywheel back from the machine shop today. They took approx. 5 pounds off the backside. I took it to my engine machine shop to have it resurfaced and balanced. I'll let you know how it turns out!

Apr 27, 2007 06:07:03
B-racer

From all the posts I've seen (and my own experience) no one who has ever installed a light flywheel has regretted it! Its doesn't matter if you're talking 5 lbs off the stock unit or a 9 lb. aluminum version. You so quickly compensate for the different clutch feel that you don't notice any change in driving characteristics other than going like stink!
The only folks who don't advise lightening the flywheel are those who have not done it yet! Let's facce it - our flywheel design was brought about in the 40's and hasn't changed much since. You can be sure that the new MGs will have a light (Chinese steel) flywheel!

Apr 30, 2007 09:03:31
JMoore

Well here is my lightened flywheel. I got it back from the engine machine shop after having it resurfaced and balanced. I weighed it at the post office on the way home an it weighs appox. 18.5#. I know it weighed about 22 before so I'm wondering if 3.5# will make a noticable difference.

I hope to pull the engine and replace the clutch this week. I'll keep you posted.

Apr 30, 2007 09:29:41
Steve64B

John,

This is what you do to get a light flywheel! It's from an Australian site:

http://www.alloyrace.com/flywheels.php

Somehow that many holes in something spinning so fast would give me nightmares about stress fractures and the lost of major bodyparts!

Steve

Apr 30, 2007 09:51:28
JMoore

Holy Cow! Looks sorta like Paul's!

Apr 30, 2007 11:15:29
Speedracer

John, I may have some bad news for you. Looking at your flywheel it appear who ever lightened it, started cutting before they got to where the pressure plate mounts up, I start taking off material after the thread holes and dial pin for the pressure plate. You going to have to havne some sort of spacers or washer to make up that distnce and there going to have to be the money as far as the height of where the clutch disc rides. Here look at one I lightened and then look at the picture of yours and you will see what I'm talking about.

Apr 30, 2007 11:18:39
JMoore

Hap,

Maybe the photo just looks funny 'cause he didn't take any off the front, only the backside.

How was the Mitty? When did you get back?

Apr 30, 2007 11:42:04
Speedracer

While we're talking about extra lightweight flywheels, here's the one on the Huffaker race car, it's a billet and weights 8.5 lbs, that's 7.25" Tilton OTII racing clutch on it.

Apr 30, 2007 11:51:40
Speedracer

I see what you are talking about John, yes the picture is a eye teaser. The Mitty was the Mitty, we had problems with the #37 car for the most part because of a rag-tag crew, that group is more worried about having a big ole party than taking care of the race cars, as a result, a oversight caused damage to his engine, so that sucked and upset the crap out of me. On the brighter side of things, I got to meet JDW face to face, Saturday, but didn't have as much time as I wanted to shoot the breeze with him, and had a few MGBexers show up Sunday morning,Mark Jackwood and Ray, Ray forgive me I forgot your last name, we talked racing and MGBs had had a good time. I've came to conclusion, I don't like working on most people's race cars at the track, and if I'm going to work that hard, my name might as well be on the side of the door, so next year at the Mitty I'll either be a beer drinking spectator or have a helmet on my head :)

Apr 30, 2007 11:56:38
chris

Ray Hightower?

Apr 30, 2007 12:04:57
Speedracer

chris Wrote:

Quote: "
Ray Hightower?
"


Ray is from Athens, Georgia, where Mark lives as well, he has Sprites. Could be Hightower. There was also a guy there I met who took a card form me, who lives in Spartanburg, who has a alot 1275 engine parts, so that's another guy I want to hook up with.

Apr 30, 2007 12:12:52
JMoore

So guys were wanting to party and drink beer?!! NO WAY! LOL!

Sorry to hear about the engine troubles. That sucks, especially if they could have avoided.

THanks for your advice on the flywheel, I hope to get it in my car this week.

Apr 30, 2007 16:31:53
Andy

Hap just made me a sweet deal on an aluminum flywheel for the Pan Am car.

This car will be on the street as well, and Hap enthusiastically endorsed the way a light flywheel helps a B engine get the revs up quick and go like stink.

Sounds like fun.

May 01, 2007 07:43:02
200mph

I'll defer to Hap's expertise (as usual :))
.
Everytime I climbed into a NASCAR or IMSA car with a huge V8 (or a street adaptation of one), the small clutch and light flywheel made them really hard to launch.
.
I'll agree that the difficulty is minimized in lighter cars like our B's and Spridgets.
.
Next time one of my engines comes out, the flywheel gets treated to a shave and a haircut. I'll submit that this is a most worthwhile upgrade for even a bone-stock engine.
Mike

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