Let me tell you a story.

This time of year seems to bring all the crazies out of the woodwork. I had a lady visit my shop a few weeks back, wanted me to build her a engine, I'm about 5+ engines deep right now, so for me, if it ain't in my shop, in line, you ain't gonna get before fall. All the good machine shops, cranks shops ect. are running a little slow this time of year due to it being racing season, so if a bore job took a week in the winter, it might take two or three weeks right now, you get the picture, this time of year demand is greater than supply for anyone in this business worth their salt. Long story short since I can't get to it now, her and 18 boy working for her during the summer are going to do it, well you think, ok that job is out of my hair, right, wrong. Since I can't get to it to build her engine personally now I became her mind to pick. I have to say she the kind of person in this sort of project I like the least, very broad-stroke, everything is a "piece of cake", " no problem" in her mind. She already told me several things I know to be lies, because if she had actually done these things she wouln't be asking me the questions she is. She will ask me a technical question and then over talks me (which is real hard to do :) ) when I finally asnwer her, I'm hit with that same ole crap, "oh I know what I doing", and the whole time I'm thinking then why the hell are you asking me. :) Everything seems to stem around this kid working there for the summer doing this rebuild for her, even though according to her she has built airplane engines before. You can see the desparation in her to get this all done before the kid goes back to school, if she knew as much as she led on, then having the kid on board wouldn't be such a big deal. I ask the kid a few very basic engine rebuilding questions, as he is one building it, not her, all items resulting in if you got them wrong the engine would go ka-pooey, the kid flunked all three questions and they were pretty basic. This woman's attitude and demeaner, and the 18 year old kid's lack of knowledge tells me deep in my heart this is failure waiting to happen. The funny thing is, knowing so little these two knuckleheads will probably luck into a perfectly running engine by shear dumb luck. She stops by my shop unannouced and interupts me while I'm working, showing me something or asking me something. The other day I'm torqueing mains down on a block, I finally had to run her out of my engine building room until I finished to look at what she wanted me to look which was a set of rods from her engine which were un-numbered with the caps and rods all mixed up in a box. Oh and ask me wht the hell is this, she had a old rusty rocker shaft in her hand and a box of rusty rocker arms.

I guess what amazes me the most about people like this is how often they muddle their way through this process with limited sucess, but I'm not holding my breath on this engine :)

Oh she just left here a few minutes ago after what I call a "unannouced terroist visit" and ran into my building while leaving! You know I like people, I really do, just not all people :)

Maddening! I hope you figure out a way to get her off your back.

We have the same thing in my business (installing alarm, stereo, ph, tv, etc. in new homes). The customer wants to do it himself, thens calls us when it doesn't work. For a charge we will go out and diagnose and fix the problem; but no, they want us to tell them the problem so they can fix it themselves.

I'm tying to learn nonsense answers to get them off the phone without offending them.

Start charging her for advise - $20 a question... OH yeah and back bill for all previous interruptions...

I did this when I was running a Communications and Computer business to one person that, like Haps, drop in at the worst moment (quiet street, 2 or 3 truck having radios installed along with the digital data systems) and he would stop by for a chat "while I am here, I am having this problem...." sort of chat.

I got to a point I carried a pad of re-made out invoices and everytime he asked a work related question (yes, he never bought or otherwise used my services) I handed him an invoice. Took two weeks before he stopped coming round.

Did a loose busines from it? I suspect yes, BUT I more than made up for it in other ways.

MAy not work for Hap, but it would be worth doing - just to see the look on her face.

Yep..just tell her as a Joke this will cost you big bucks if you want my opinion...but maybe not it sounds like you want her to stay ::?:;/.l/. Away from you shop.

Hap's gotta girlfriend!

:) GIRLFRIEND! HAPS GOTTA GIRLFRIEND! .......... Ever see "Play Misty For Me"? That's what this old 'hanger on-er' sounds like. I do feel sorry the most for the kid. I am hopeful that he will eventually begin to sense his mothers oddness and not become the same.

Basil Adams Wrote:

Hap, as a service manager in a Toyota store (and earlier in a Nissan store) I had to work out a way of working with DIY people with free advice. I didn't want to offend them because of the potential for work down the line. If something went wrong with their work, or if they found themselves in deep water, I wanted to be there. There was also the opportunity for parts sales from their visits.

Yet I couldn't have them soaking up chargeable hours from the techs.

I always offered the use of the shop manuals to look through without assistance. If they wanted to copy a couple of pages, I was ok with that.

Finally, we came to this if a person became a frequent offender. I didn't take this action on a single occurrence, or even after two events. But after the second request for assistance, I had to take some action.

I explained that the techs were paid for their time. I then offered to open a running work order with a VISA card. If they wanted to consult with a tech, I would dispatch the consultation to the tech when the tech became available. The tech would punch in. There was a minimum .2 charge for the interruption.

The hard part was gaining the customer's confidence that we wanted to help, but we also wanted to be fair to the tech. Some customers agreed to the arrangement and treated it as an opportunity, not a punishment. The customers who objected to the arrangement were probably not going to be customers we would do good business with anyway.

LOL! I just had an idea. Tell her to join this forum for assistance.

It could be pretty entertaining. Of course, we'd have to ask Skye to delete this thread!

Yep Rod, if she came, and read this maybe I would be shed of her then. I can't even imagine what it's like to be a service manager in a dealership, I'd probably shoot myself, a decade in a Goodyear dealership was bad enough, the happiest day of my life was the day I found a buyer for it. I've got my little business set up to not have alot of visitors which I kinda like, wish I was in the country sometimes, but being in the city is very resourceful. As for her being my girlfriend, I'd castrate myself first :)

Hap - there ARE BETTER ways to remove weight from a race car

Ow, Ow, OW!

:)

Beware Hap if she is asking all this advice and it all goes wrong because her 18 year old doesn't know what he is doing then you may be blamed whether you gave her the advice or not

Russ

Russco Wrote:

Hap,
All the posts are valid & I'm afraid that she is not going to go away lightly.
RonnieMac has the right idea.
The next time she appears (if it's convenient for you to do so) stop her before she starts. Be diplomatic (easy for you I'm sure!) but firm. You are running a business. Time costs money. If she is willing to make an appointment and pay for your time then okay. Tell her how much the going rate is and tell her she will be invoiced at that rate. She may even get the hint.
Of course if you would rather not having anything to do with her - stranger measures may be needed. Out goes Gentleman Hap!!

Or put up a big sign -

"All questions answered gladly. $10.00 each. No cheques or credit"

Whatever it takes DO it. For your own sanity. People like this drive you crazy.
Regards, Graham

Back in my old racing days, We kept a working racecar shop (me and a coupla racer buddies). To help me pay the rent, and afford new tires for the SCCA Nat'ls, I did a little shop work. Had 10 or 12 customers, and helped keep up a half a dozen B's, a few Spridgets an occasional Mini, and a Big Healey.
My rules were. Come over on Saturday afternoon. Bring a six-pack and a friend with another car. We talk about whats wrong, maybe go for a ride, and you go away. I'll call you in a coupla days to come get your car.
I never deviated, and it always worked for me. When folks came by unannounced, I told them the rules and got back to work.
Not rude, assertive.
Best of luck with her, it may be as simple as telling her you're busy and will call her when you have the free time.
Have fun

I always like to help people out but when you're in the middle of a service procedure and you get interrupted there is a greater chance that you may forget to tighten a bolt, drain plug or something else. Most people don't realize this. John Twist has a great way of dealing with it. He answers questions during his lunch and his wife runs interference the rest of the day. That seems to me to be the most polite and least offensive solution. Set aside a small block of time that is written in stone.

I hear you guys, believe me I do and yes, it's not just her, I have many more folks not that far from her, and I got to come up with a solution to this problem overall. Here's another one that chapped my ass recently, he comes here and really I hope he reads this. He has called me maybe a dozen times over the last six months he building on his own a pretty serious MGB street engine and he is using all the good stuff, I spent hours with him on the phone giving up free advice, in our last conversation, he starting telling me that he was using a Sean Brown head, A Advanced Distributor and APT Cam, so on and so forth, It pissed me off to no end, not that he was buying something from Sean or Jeff, but after all the free advice I had given him, I was not on his list of stuff he was buying. I told him who's building your carbs, he called a name, I said has that person spent endless time with you on the phone answering your questions, at this point I think I deserve some aspect of this project for all the free advice I have given you, after some thought he said I had the carb rebuilding, I still have't seen them yet.

I think maybe the solution is quite simple, I can use this forum as my portal thru direct post in front of the entire population, if someone has a question, then they come here and ask it. If they want more personal attention they pay a fee up front for so many hours of advice sold ina block of time, 1 hour at normal shop labor rate, when the times expires they then buy another block of time. This would only apply to folks who are not buying work from me, all my good customers can call me anytime they want, hell most of my good customers have my home phone number.

You guys wouldn't believe the time this kinda of stuff robs of my day, this Friday was good exmaple. I had two emails they were both quite in depth, both were of the same nature, atleast a dozen catagories of questions, with more than one question in each catagory. I'm sure it took both of these folks a half hour to hour to write these emails.
It took me just a tick over 2 1/2 hours to answer them. Now one of these customers I'm building a race engine for and this person has basicly pre-paid for their engine, they can call me a 2 am if they want to, they have earned that right, the other guy a potential customer I feel strong enough to spend the time to anwwer their questions, not so much how to questions, but rather more along the lines of what can you do for me questions, so he too was was worth the intial effort to sit down and answer his questions. Sometimes I just delete emails after glancing over them, you know the guy who starts off by saying I'm building my on engine totally by myself, but I have several questions for you, then it leads into a big long drawn out email, this is a total waste of my time in my book, so if any of you have ever sent me a email like this and not got a response, now you know why, I increasingly doing this more, almost on a weekly/daily basis, same with phone messages, I determine if the caller who left the message is wanting to buy something or just picking my mind the the mind pickers, I just hit the erase button and go on to the next call. Then I get the "WTF" calls and emails, you know the guy who calls me for a stock fuel pump for his MGB or ask me if I can build a engine for his pickup truck and I think to myself if this person took the time to read my website they would clearly see I don't offer these type of services.

HAp,
I'll add to my post on the pre-printed question invoices. I used them a few times, and on one customer it did have a happy result, in that although he was asking me stuff for his personal radios equipment(or so I thought at the time) he worked for a government department who had just closed their radio workshop due to costs.

He walked in one day, about a week after I had given him a bill for all the time spent answering his questions, and simply stated "we have a contract open for radio repair/install and upgrading. It's yours if you want it". When I asked him why I was being made that offer, his answer was "you feel strongly enough about your worth and knowledge, that I want you working on our equipment" Needless to say I was shocked that after only six months in business I had a Government contract for thousands of dollars while I designed and implemented a statewide commuinications system for Emergency services.

A contract that, if I needed to spend time in an area to search out suitable locations for a radio repeater, they covered transports, hotels, food the whole works.


Later when I moved form that country town, Dave did everything he could top keep me on as Tech Advisor (under contract) but unfortunately we both agreed that 7,500 mile made that a bit difficult. Yes I still hear from once in a while and no not with radio questions. Over the 2 years involved with the project Dave and I became good friends.

Sometimes, you just never know.

Yes I see your point, I'm running into this more and more, most people respect you for valueing yourself. I do like to help people, even this lady, but it comes down to logistics, I don't have the time, and time is money. I fiquire on the bought block time, I bet I won;t have many take me up on it, but it will do two things, make me a customer or two and get rid of the deadbeats. I learned a long time ago, anyone who want to deny you a profit is like a cancer, cut it off and get rid of it.

On a happier note, I got a call from Allen Brill the other day, he said I didn't call you to tell you I'm having any problems, I called you tell you how much I love my engine and how much more I like driving my car now. Allen is alot more than a customer, he is a friend because of the relationship we developed during his engine build. There were a few up and downs during Allen's engine build, he never lost his cool or faith in me, Allen is first class gentleman all the way. His call made the day worthwhile.

Hap,

I hope I'm not the one who's abused your generous professional advice! I know I for one have learned so much from you participating on this forum. But I would imagine pro's like yourself, Tom B, Sean, Jeff, Carl and others walk a fine line participating in forums like this. I'm sure you do it 'cause you love the cars and helping people and it can contribute to your business, there are those who like you said can abuse your time and advice. I'm not sure what the answer is, but I know I would hate to see you leave in frustration. Here's an idea. I always thought it was pretty neat that Twist would take calls during his lunch break. It's been awhile since I looked at his site, but I think he sets aside an hour while he eats lunch to field questions and limits calls to just a few minutes. I remember a long time ago, I was stuck on some issue and gave him a call. He helped me out and it was pretty cool and I remember hearing him chewing on his sandwich! LOL!

But too I guess it's the nature of the beast. MG's and spridgets are a "poor man's sports car". Anyone can get one for fairly cheap and unfortunately many take the cheap way out on fixing things. It's not like they are Aston Martins or E Type Jags. I know like others I get ALOT of satisfaction doing it myself. But anyway, I hope you sort this issue out and stick around for a very long time as I for one see this forum as a much better place with your contributions!

John, no you or anything that happen here on this forum is not the problem. I value the forum for education just like you guys do, I learned alot hear as well. I come here by choice, I stay here by choice, again I learned alot here and made quite a few friends here as well, this is good thing, not a bad thing.

Forums always come up at the BMTA confernece, most of the big shots shoot them down pretty hard, Carl H. being one of the few that values them like I do. I started coming here when I got the 74 GT and was wanting to restore it, then stayed here as I got the 67 that was restored. From a personal MGB street car owner standpoint I enjoy this site, as a businessman, I value this site, many of you are supporters of my shop and customers, this forum has turned out to be better than any magazine ad I ever took out and the most linked hits I get to my website are from here. That why I got a gold star from Skye and thats why I want to open up a Cafe Press shop for the forum and Skye, this place has been as good to me as it has to any of you. You guys are like family and I would never turn my back on any of you.

The thing that most people don't understand is that a five minute phone call for advice can result in an hour's worth of lost time. When you are deeply involved in something like building an engine or working on something technical your mind layers the different factors that affect what you are doing; like something that must be done while you do another task as you progress through the job. An interruption shreds these layers and it takes time to mentally get back to where you were before the interruption. The 'ol "now where was I?" times 10.

Hap, let the phone box take a message, call back later.

I don't suppose you could just shoot her.....?

Hap, I think your thinking on this project is going the right way.

You want to make good business decisions.

First of all, you have already determined what a good customer partnership looks like. The best customer, as you recognize, is the one that has already put some money on the table and is asking for only equivalent value. You say that you are providing those customers with easy access.

The more difficult part is to determine which random calls provide the potential for good business.

Putting up negative signs about charging for questions won't work well. You'll annoy these potentially strong customers along with the less desirable.

I think you could put together a purposeful set of criteria to apply to a first contact to determine if you want to pursue the partnership further. The best source for this information comes from the good business you have done in the past.

I don't know your business, but I would venture a few determinants: a. geography - the closer they are to you, the more likely they are to buy your services; b. plans for the vehicle - what do they want to accomplish? Is there a match with your services? c. expectations about possible expenditures.

You could gather this information fairly quickly in casual but purposeful conversation, blending your questions in with their own.

You could then have in place alternate courses of action that you could live with. I work with some ag dealers that run into people doing restorations on tractors. They have a photocopied list of sources of information and suppliers that they can provide to customers that they determine will not be good business. They appear (and are) helpful, but limit their time involvement. You might do the same, using either electronic responses or paper.

The process isn't foolproof and you could miss the mark once in a while. But the alternative is to spend too much time doing work that you won't get paid for.

My local MG Service Centre here in Christchurch had an amusing sign up which may relate a little bit to your situation. It read

If I do the job $60 an hour
If you want to stand around and talk to me $80 an hour
If you started the job and you want me to complete it $120 an hour

This sign is in full view of those people that come into his office and I guess that if the need really arose he could fall back on it.

Russ

Yeah, Hap's got a girl friend, alright - her name's Mary Jane and he married her a bunch of years ago and they take REAL good care of each other! :)

A guy I know wanted to learn machine work, just as a hobby, not a trade, so he went and volunteered to do the heavy lifting at a local shop for free. He learned a lot, and on the upside, was permitted to use their equipment to build his own motor. Figure out what machinist you like the least and suggest she put her son in servitude there.

Hap -

Maybe you should be like some doctors offices, and put out a sign that says...

"Not accepting new Patients"......might help deter a few...

I spend a lot of time at my mechanic's place - but he knows which side his bread is buttered on so he lets me stay. The more I stay, the more ideas I get. The more ideas I get the more I buy.

He is retiring soon and I think I have funded that (and his car collection).

I like the John Twist method as well for talking with DIYers and the like; that hour each day. That gets you some good PR and draws the line about when they can call and talk to you. I've used his line a couple of times.

The local guru in our car club is the service manager for a car dealership in town. He helps almost everyone in the club with their LBCs at their homes with frequent workshops. We have to make donations to the club charity for his time. When it comes to occupying his time at work, I consider that verboten. I recently asked him about my Toyota. I brought it in for a diagnosis, but to me that means they should be my first choice for the repair, not my free diagnosis service. The last thing I would want to do was piss him off by being a freeloader or ungrateful for his services to the club.

She is a parasite. Parasites get eliminated or you end up sick. It may be hard to do, but I'd just let her know that free advice is the lowest priority in your business, and when she is willing to pay for it or to wait for you to have the time to deal with her project, she would be well advised to find someone else to work with her who has the time and inclination to do so. You are running a business, not an advice column, and therefore you must respect your prior paying commitments and she is NOT one of them unless she wants to cross your palm with a reasonable fee.

Hap, I do appreciate the predicament this puts you in. I spent the better part of my career in media production and running a conference center (almost 35 yrs total) dealing with folks very much like this woman, and finally, I figured that they were parasites, just like a tape worm and both ending up sucking away my time and energy. Finally, I ended up having to put together a "terms of service" statement that I simply handed off to folks like her. In it I put forth the criteria for my (and my staff's) involvement in any given project, and if they could not meet those criteria (no money, no contract - no commitment on our part! NO EXCEPTIONS) then to hell with them. Most folks like this lady figure that they are the exception, and for the bulk of this sort of personality type, handing them your terms of service may piss them off, but frankly, their histories generally show that they will always get PO'd with anyone who draws a line between their manipulation and your rights to work unimpeded. Thankfully, they are only a small but still annoying portion of those we deal with.

I wish you good luck with this gal, Hap, as they can be a genuine PITA. Being the natural born A**hole that I am, I had to often simply tell them that this was our policy and turn on my heel and go about my business as if they no longer existed. In almost all cases, these folks got the point and went elsewhere. The one HUGE advantage you have in your case is that YOU own the business. I didn't, and sometimes I had to answer to some corporate bigwig who felt that schmoozing a jackass by putting our hands into a tarbaby was the more politic way of "making points in the community".

Best of luck!!

I'm with Bob on this. We have to do the same thing for people who want a free landscape consultation. When we tell them that our time is not free, invariably they say that Joe Groundscraper doesn't charge for advice. This is the perfect opening to invite them to call him.