Just curious what type of anti-freeze folks are using in their cars? I have been using the "Dexclool compatible" long life Prestone product since I purchased the car in 2004. Seems cleaner than the old green Prestone stuff that needed to be changed every couple of years. It took a lot of cleaning/flushing to get the remains of the green slime out of the cooling system before filling with the new product.
I saw recently that the green Prestone is now labeled "long life" although I did not have a chance to study the label. Not sure how it is different from the Dexcool compatible. Your thoughts?
Ken
Long life anti-freeze?
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Take a look at the post a few weeks ago about older IAT (inorganic additive technology) vs newer OAT (organic acid technology) antifreeze. To summarize, the OAT seems to be bad for older (10 year+) vehicles and even some new vehicles. All Prestone is currently OAT. I've found the old IAT "classic" green at NAPA and am using it now. Not sure who make the NAPA green. I believe I ran the OAT stuff (Prestone) for the two years prior to this and have no idea if any harm or not.
http://www.mgexperience.net/phorum/read.php?1,1275363,1275363#msg-1275363
read all the links and i have one question. what do the newer coolants do to the older cars?
My take is
A) follow OEm recommendatins which means IAT
B. OAT is taking over and probably has to do with higher Aluminum content in todays engines and radiators
C) I find no conclusive evidence modern OAT is actually bad for our cars...but I have only done a half dozen different word searches to the subject...I would like clear evidence that indeed OAT is bad for pre 80s LBCs....
From:
http://www.arrowheadradiator.com/Radiator_Diagnosis,_%20Repair,_%20&_%20Replacement_%20Tips.htm
The single most important factor that leads to radiator failure is lack of cooling system maintenance. The corrosion inhibitors in conventional antifreeze are gradually depleted over time, so the recommended coolant change interval has traditionally been every two years or 24,000 to 30,000 miles for preventative maintenance. The new long-life antifreeze formulas that can go 5 years or 100,000 miles between changes reduce the need for cooling system maintenance and can reduce the risk of premature radiator failure. But most vehicles still have antifreeze with conventional additives in their cooling systems. So when regular coolant changes are neglected, corrosion goes to work.
Aluminum is more vulnerable to electrolytic corrosion than either copper/brass or cast iron because aluminum is a highly reactive metal. When the corrosion inhibitors are used up and the pH of the coolant drops to 7 or below, aluminum becomes a sacrificial anode and is eaten away.
This same type of corrosion can also occur even when the coolant is in good condition if the engine does not have a good ground connection. Voltage from the charging system will flow through the coolant to ground, creating electrolysis corrosion that attacks the components in the cooling system.
Checking the pH of the coolant with chemically-treated test strips can help you determine if the coolant is overdue for a change. The alkalinity of a typical antifreeze/water mixture will vary depending on the additives in the antifreeze and the ratio of ingredients, but is usually somewhere between 8 and 11. The average for most antifreezes is around 10.5, but when diluted 50/50 with water and added to the cooling system the pH drops to the 8.5 to 9 range. Higher is not necessarily better, though, because some of the new long-life coolants have a pH of only 8.3. Staying power is what counts.
Traditional antifreeze formulas for domestic applications with aluminum radiators, cylinder heads or blocks contain a high level of silicates (which is not really needed in cast iron engines with copper/brass radiators). Silicates form a protective barrier on aluminum that protects the metal. The additives used in European and Asian OEM antifreezes, however, are different. The Europeans use less silicates and rely mostly on borates to inhibit corrosion. Their antifreeze also contains no phosphates because hard water can react with phosphates to form calcium and magnesium sediments. The Asians use phosphates but no borates and low or no silicates because they say borates may actually add to the aluminum corrosion problem if the coolant is neglected. The new long life coolants use an entirely different corrosion inhibiting chemistry that uses carboxylate organic acids instead of the silicates, phosphates or borates. Getting rid of the silicates, some say, helps extend the life of the water pump seal because the microscopic particles of silicate in conventional antifreeze are abrasive.
Regardless of what type of antifreeze you use, it should be meet OEM specifications and be "aluminum-safe" if the radiator is aluminum.
Also see:
http://www.underhoodservice.com/Article/46495/cooling_system_antifreeze_requirements.aspx
Well I sure hope it ain't bad because the hubby and I just put the Prestone Extended Life in all six of our vehicles just last week :)
One issue that I have heard of with OAT antifreezes is that the corrosion inhibitors will precipitate if air gets dissolved into the fluid due to minor leaks in cooling system around gaskets etc.. Has anyone else heard of this? If so, at what concentrations?
I pulled down a Grand Am V6 that had the coolant passages in the head partially blocked with some gunky brown stuff. I wonder if that was the issue.
Just when I though ZDDP was all there was to worry about.:S
On a side note, I just got the GF an 02 Grand Prix. The Dex Cool in the coolant bottle looks like yucky pink jello. Evidently when the 5 yrs are up so is it. I intend to flush the system & refill. Guy at the parts store advised me against putting Dex back in and reccomended an aftermarket brand. I believe it's one of the ones that works in anything. Plus it's half the price. He said that's the problem with Dex Cool. When it goes beyond it's time it gels.
http://www.kaiserbill.com/Web-PDF/Antifreeze.pdf
Last paragraph supports the belief the new stuff maybe harmful. But no explanation. :S
I thought that the Prestone HD coolant still uses the silicated instead of OAT corrosion inhibitors.
I called Prestone tech line and they said all their stuff is OAT. Who knows? The containers aren't labeled worth a damn.
I can tell you that I have had two cars with that DEX cool crap and both have had coolant related issues.
Our Buick 3.4 eats intake manifolds every few years and our Tahoe always had minor intake coolant leaks.
Give me the green stuff changed every few years.
The original formula Dex Cool ruined a lot of engine gaskets and cost GM millions of dollars. Ironic for something that was supposed to be safer.
http://www.imcool.com/articles/antifreeze-coolant/CPM-52-DEXArticle-Excerpt.pdf
The lawsuits were filed on behalf of owners of General Motors vehicles, which were factory-filled with "Dex-Cool" coolant. In summary, the lawsuits alleged that Dex-Cool degraded certain vehicles’ intake manifold gaskets and other engine sealability components, and that in certain other vehicles, Dex-Cool formed a rusty sludge, clogging the vehicles’ cooling systems and causing vehicles to overheat."
One of the things that I read at one time (and I have to admit to not keeping up with this subject because I have a whole carton of the old green stuff) is that the OAT antifreezes don't play well with soldered radiators (non aluminum as our OEM radiators are).
Cheers,
Peak may still offer the green IAT...
I really wish someone would chime in other than the DEX stuff which all seem to agree is a PIA and not a very good solution nor solution.....
I just did a read of multiple articles and the consensus is to follow the OEM's suggestion regarding anti-freeze. Scratch that idea, when was the last time that you saw a Unipart anti-freeze container.
The older IAT formulas had silicates and phosphates in them which protected the copper/brass radiators and heating elements in addition to the aluminum and cast iron.
The OAT forumlas have done away with the additives that tend to protect the brass/copper.
I'm curious whether the glycerine based products in heavy equipment will work better than the OAT. Anyone have any experience with this.
I have used the Volvo antifreeze for years, and it is great stuff. Pricey, but just regular ethylene glycol.
I can tell you that I have had two cars with that DEX cool crap and both have had coolant related issues.
Our Buick 3.4 eats intake manifolds every few years and our Tahoe always had minor intake coolant leaks.
Give me the green stuff changed every few years."
Same thing on our relatively new Astro van a couple of years ago. The lifters took a dump 200 miles past the warranty, when we pulled it apart you could see where the coolant was eating the manifold.
Robert: Thanks for the information. Do you use the extended life anti-freeze?
I use the green stuff in my MG. Last year, I changed it was and it was more brown than green; I guess that I left it in too long. I changed it again this year and it looked much better. I would like to use a long life anti-freeze in the MG but I am waiting to see how other people are doing.
I have been using the Texaco extended life (5 year) in my Fiero. Texaco told me to change it after 3 years when changing from the green stuff. The first change and the fluid looked red with no debri. The second change after 5 years and it looked red like it was new. I have heard that some people have problems especially when changing from regular anti-freeze to long life.
My wife's Taurus manual recommends changing it after first 100,000 mile and then 50,000 miles after that. It looks like some manufacturers are recommending longer life anti-freeze.
Has anyone made the switch to a long life anti-freeze?
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