NOOB questions - please..

Folks,

I did look for a "stickie" or "FAQ" - called buying a T series MG. Really. They actually seem to be rather scarce on the web, at least in a Google search.

Some of my questions have probably been asked 1x10e15 times.. sorryaboutthat..

But here goes - and I'm fairly flameproof.

Background - in looking at my 401k's and Profit-Sharing, it appears that I've lost about 1/3rd of what I saved. The thought came to me - that I could do something else with a bit of the $$ and have fun at the same time, without risking any more than I am in conventional investments.

I have in the past restored cars and motorcycles. I learned from the experience - the lesson that the best value in restored cars/motorcycles are ones someone else restored. Doing a restoration always seems to cost more than the end value of the finished product, and frequently causes the restorer to grow to hate the project by the time they're done. So.. I decided to look for a car I could use right out of the box, and not worry about doing a restoration. I hate body work with a passion, I suck at it, I dislike doing it - it's simply not me. I don't mind mechanical stuff - actually it's a nice relaxation for me, sort of like solving puzzles.

So - I've been looking.

I started out looking at Morgans, but that somehow morphed into looking at T series MGs (likely because there are lots more to look at, and the prices are more reasonable.) I've found cars from $4,000-40,000 USD. The $4,000 are ones I would run away from. The $40,000 are too good and too expensive - they'd be no fun since I'd be afraid of driving them. It looks as if I'm slotting into a $20-25,000 range. This price range seems to include cars that are excellent drivers (not daily drivers - I have real cars and motorcycles to serve that function..) Drivers that I wouldn't hesitate to take to a local car meet and sit next to, and in the odd meet perhaps even win some trivial sort of award.

It seems as if most of the ones I find are TD's - likely since they were the most popular one imported to the US. The TC - while a really nice car - I don't do right-hand drive, plus a friend has one that I could never compete with, so I'd rather it be something later, like a TD or TF.

Questions I have:

1 - What is the one fatal flaw that they all suffer from that's hard to spot?

2 - Were people shaped differently when the cars were built? Little pointy feet? Long legs? No stomachs or thighs? I tried fitting into one I looked at - and it was unclear if I could drive it (an aside - the seat-back wasn't working right and it was fully back..) How do modern people (expecially shorter legged fluffy ones) manage the driving position ergonomics?

3 - Where are the values going? In doing a bit of market research, at the moment - it doesn't appear the market is plummeting. Any expectation of the bottom dropping out?

4 - US clubs. I've found a few spotty lists of clubs, and I know there is one near me (the Positive Earth Club) - but MG and general brit car clubs seem a bit scarce in NJ (USA.) Any enlightenment would be good.

One I've found has had a ground up restoration done on it - including the woodwork, wiring, body work, interior, etc.. etc.. frame-off, nut-bolt sort - documented extenstively. It's a '52 TD, with the MK-II carbs (but single fuel pump.) If I had to rate it on a 0-100 scale, it comes in a very solid 90. The tranny seems to be drooling a bit from the rear seal - other than that - oil tight. All electrics have been done (wiring harness, etc.) Everything works. Paint is flawless. Interior is as new. Hoods/tops/sidecurtains as new. New tires and new brakes and brake lines (tags till on them.) Flaws I saw were - a small crack in the glass in the windshield, and the dribbling transmission. I have not driven it (we're some distance apart - but a friend looked and took detailed photos for me..)

Any thoughts on value in the US? (It's in southern US, I'm in northern..)

TIA - sorry to make this long a posting - think of it as a mind-dump.

Don Eilenberger

Don,
Honest, you sound like me! I had the same mindset, and questions. (with the exception of motorcycles) You didn't mention the asking price on the TD in question, but I live in Louisiana and went to Michigan to get my TD. It was an older restoration, but ran great. In fact today, I started on the body work from when it sat garaged for years, and obviously had many things leaned against it. Minor stuff. I paid $11,750 for it, and I, like you, have seen TD's for upwards of $40,000. Quite an investment compared to today's IRA's. When the smoke clears, I may be looking for another. but again, like you, I don't want to buy a car in pieces. This is actually a GREAT time to buy/invest...people are getting rid of toys.

Concerning the 'stature of the british', I figure they were all long-legged and short torso-ed! I use deck shoes to drive it, and I did switch the brake pedal bracket to the opposite side for additional clearance...I also got used to engaging the clutch when braking to allow clearance.

I don't think they have a fatal flaw, but aren't what today's cars are. Having said that, to me, that's the fun of driving them.

Any 50+ year old car, concerning value, that is restored and drivable (besides enjoyable, and eye-catching) will hold value, and although somewhat slim, the market is active. I wasn't willing to spend $25,000, but was willing to drive to Michigan to spend $11,750. Go to 'Hemming Motors' website, and look up the 'T' series MG's. (although, it seems, like me, you've done that too!) LOL

Granted I don't see ever taking a long trip in 'Maggie', but there isn't a trip I've taken yet without people honking at me, screaming at me "NICE CAR", or asking about it even while stopped at red lights!!

Good luck with your decision, if I can be of any help at all, feel free!!
Dean

Don - It bothers me when someone is talking about the decreasing value of their 401K and investing what is left in a special interest car. That is about the best way that I know of to insure that you will have to work until you are 95 or older before you can retire. Special interest cars are just that, special interest - they only appeal to the person who drooled over that particular car at 18 and couldn't afford it until they are in their 40s. If you want to know what a T series MG will be worth 20 years from now, talk to the 18 year old drivers as to what car they would buy if they had sufficient money - I will guarantee the answer will not be a T series MG. Go to MG clubs in your area and look at the age of the members - most of them will be in their 50s - 70s and older. there may be one or two 30 somethings, but there won't be a single 20 something in the crowd. Ask the club members why they aren't recruiting younger members and see what response you get. That will give you an idea of what the T series (or any MG or other special interest car) car will be worth 20 - 40 years from now. Take what's left of your 401K and put it in CD in your local credit union until the stock market sorts itself out if you really want to retire someday.
Cheers,

Don,
No doubt, Dave has, what I would call, been around the MG block and KNOWS of what he speaks. I certainly wouldn't steer a man to dump all his savings in a "special interest car", but I also watched my neighbor, a pharmacist of 30 years, lose 2/3rds of his IRA in the past year and a half. As you have put it, a drivable, enjoyable car of any type is an investment, and if affordable, will hold it's value. I do see the logic behind Dave's reasoning of there not being any 20 year olds in the 'Antique Car Clubs', therefore the market for the TD is limited. However, I was 4 years old when my car was made, and when I was 20 my 'dream car' was (and is still) a Model T ford. True, at 20, I couldn't afford a 'toy', but the car would have been 55 years old at that time, same as this car is to the 20 year olds today.

Keep a good watch on Hemming Motors advertisements for older MG's, and see how many you recognize next month!

Cheers,
Dean

Dean,

Indeed that was my thought. My "dream" car - an 810 Cord - was new when my father (RIP) was about 20 years old. I would buy one today if I could afford it. As a runner up - I don't believe Dusenburg made it much past the 1930's - and again - if I could afford one it would be sitting in my garage. Or even the '65 XKE I owned 30+ years ago... if I could rationalize paying $120,000 for a car I sold for $1,200..

I've followed collector car prices for about 30 years now (I'm no kid..) - starting with the Ferrari 275GTB that I didn't buy in 1969 for $2,700. I kept track of it's value through the years - when it peaked at $1.2 million, I was really sorry I hadn't bought it. Then when it dipped to $800,000 - I was happy I didn't 'cause I would have lost $400,000 (dumb thinking, but..) A 275GTB is now somewhere north of $2 million for a good one - so I'm guessing I would have done better on the $2,700 investment from 1969 on that car than anything else I could have invested in.

Should'a, could'a, would'a.

Famous words, often heard when it's too late. With the money the government is printing by the dump truck load - I would expect we'll be seeing double-digit inflation within 2-3 years. The already diminished value of any paper investment (CD's, 401k's) will diminish yet again. As I said - I've watched collector car values for way too long - the collector market seems to do well in comparison to paper assets during inflationary markets. And you can have fun with your investment at the same time.

I don't expect to make a killing on a collector car - I just expect to first have fun with it, and second - not go into the toilet with it. And in my case - the money for the toy isn't "what is left" from my 401k's - it's what's lying around making very little interest at the moment that I'd like to have fun with, and if I'm lucky - get a bit of return on in the process.

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As a footnote - I finally drove a TD. Sorta. No distance - just around a senior development. It appeared to be a perfect TD. Driving it mostly reminded me of my old Simplicity riding lawn tractor. Had similar braking capabilities. It was actually a bit scary to drive. I pretty much had to stand on the brake and coast it to a stop, uphill.

Hate to say it 'cause I know all of you love your TDs - the TD didn't ring my chimes, so TDs are likely out (unless this was an awful one I drove.) Since then I've driven an MGB last weekend (was fun to drive, even though the one I was driving had mechanical problems) and I fit OK in it. A TR6 on Saturday (reminded me of driving an old pickup truck, with no shoulder room, which was surprising), and I'm probably going to drive an MGA next weekend. And in the back of my mind is a bugeye Sprite (owned one for a bit - never really drove it, it mostly sat shedding iron particles on my garage floor..)

And meanwhile - I spotted an absolutely wonderful "survivor" 1958 Mercedes 190 sedan at a local sleezy used car dealer. It's an amazingly preserved 50,000 mile 51 year old car - even down to original (needs buffing out - but it's all there) paint, interior mats, everything. Not a spot of rust. It looks like a time capsule that was put away about 1962. Haven't driven it. I think they're asking way too much. But - it also looks like it would be a really neat toy.. (I'm fickle..)

Thanks ALL to everyone for your thoughts, comments and suggestions. They have been very much appreciated, and I'll lurk here since it seems to be a damn nice group of people.

Don,
First off I'm 78 and have owned my TD since 1959. Does that tell you anything?
We bought the car in 1959 as as a second family car for $500.00. I drove it year round in upstate NY and loved every minute of it. I did get cold in the winter though and the heater was more for looks than heat. There were no demisters (as the English call them) and the back of my gloved hand became pressed into that duty. BUT never once was I stuck with that car in the snow and ice. We finally took it off the road in 1966 after burning a piston and stored it for two years and then did a 2 year frame off restoration. Started driving it again in 1970 and took trophies at every show it was entered in. Finally took a first in the premier class of the New England MG T Register in 1972 on the grounds of Belcourt Castle in Newport RI. We then decided to retire the car from active competition and then showed it as "display only". We drove the car to every single show it was ever entered in and had a ball doing it. This was from Upstate NY through all the New
England states, as far west as Ohio, and as far south as Virginia. We then bought (in addition to the TD) a 1954 MG TF and just drove and enjoyed that car. Again it was not a show car and we drove that to every event also. In 1984 we bought a 66 MG B (also in addition to) and have traveled in that car since we got it. This has been on 8 New England Mountain Adventures plus an additional two trips to Vermont every summer. These cars are great to travel in, and we still do that every summer. There are a few times though, in the summers, when we wish we we had taken the air conditioned Buick but. . . . .you don't get thumbs up and the great comments we do in the MG's driving that car.
I would not get one as an alternative to a 401 K or retirement account though. It is a fun toy and one you will enjoy as much as we have. You might want to consider a B as they do have a little more interior room than the T series but not all that much. Fortunately we are not tall so the cars work well for us.

Good luck in whatever you decide to do.

BY the way we still have all three MG's.

George Herschell

deilenberger Wrote: [quote]
Folks,
I did look for a "stickie" or "FAQ" - called buying a T series MG. Really. They actually seem to be rather scarce on the web, at least in a Google search.
Some of my questions have probably been asked 1x10e15 times.. sorryaboutthat..
But here goes - and I'm fairly flameproof.
Background - in looking at my 401k's and Profit-Sharing, it appears that I've lost about 1/3rd of what I saved. The thought came to me - that I could do something else with a bit of the $$ and have fun at the same time, without risking any more than I am in conventional investments.
.......................
Questions I have:
1 - What is the one fatal flaw that they all suffer from that's hard to spot?
2 - Were people shaped differently when the cars were built? Little pointy feet? Long legs? No stomachs or thighs? I tried fitting into one I looked at - and it was unclear if I could drive it (an aside - the seat-back wasn't working right and it was fully back..) How do modern people (expecially shorter legged fluffy ones) manage the driving position ergonomics?
3 - Where are the values going? In doing a bit of market research, at the moment - it doesn't appear the market is plummeting. Any expectation of the bottom dropping out?
4 - US clubs. I've found a few spotty lists of clubs, and I know there is one near me (the Positive Earth Club) - but MG and general brit car clubs seem a bit scarce in NJ (USA.)


I agree with the fellow poster about investment. Stick with the stock market it's going to recover. Special Interest car investment is better left to professionals with deep pockets. I have over 30 such vehicles and know I am ahead of the game only because, as with stock, I buy cheap...the best I can afford at firesales. That said, the joy of owning any collectable is enjoying it. The TC and Jag were "discovered" by Pilots in the UK post WWII and soon set the pace for sporty men and others who wanted to be sporty. MG and virtually all the others relegated "sports car" development to the back burner as slab designed, shorter versions using parts in common with practical cars. BMC finally emerged from their pre war designs in 1955 with a model from 1951...the MGA when US sales and profits proved the corporate worth of a bit more attention to that element of their "stable" of offerings.
No T type was ever built with a real person. They are rough even for the rugged. As one man put it, "while a TC certainly doesn't stop on a dime be assured you will feel it if you run over a dime."
I would say the weakest link is the wood sub frame. Expensive to restore, suspect if not restored, problematic if restored incorrectly. An ideal candidate would have spent its life in the US SW arid territory and remain in OEM condition.
Any MG club is a good starting point and I prefer the National Organizations. There is one in particular aimed at T owners with GOFs through out the NE and US...."The Sacred Octagon" is their newsletter...GOF means Gathering Of the Faithful.
No one has a crystal ball and today's kids haven't a clue to what a "classy and or classic" car are. We boomers were driven by cars, which inspired us in our youth that we could afford finally close to retirement. I think the market place is on hold or near dead for Ford Ts and As for instance. Anyone who wanted one has it and no one else is interested. I suspect if you can find a car in the $10-20K range finished, it will be "safe". But I reiterate, ANY collectible’s value is in its ability to effect joy. One never owns anything really; we just ante up to care for awhile what others will own in the future.

An addtion to the "dime comment".
If you run over a dime in a TF you know you ran over a coin. If it's in a TD you know its a dime, and if you run over one in a TC you know if it's heads or tails. AND if you are in a Healey 100, forget it because you'll never get over it without scrapeing.

Just a little humor, but I own the TD and TF and used to have the Healey and can vouch for the truth.

George Herschell

No T type was ever built with a real person. They are rough even for the rugged. As one man put it, "while a TC certainly doesn't stop on a dime be assured you will feel it if you run over a dime."

Any T Type is a joy to own.

They are only rough for those who can't handle a real car.

I'll run away quickly now >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>