National Service, Good Idea / Bad Idea

Many nations have, or did have national service programs. Typically, you have a choice between military service or civilian service of some sort. In Austria, they had a fair in October I saw showing the different types of service that kids could participate in. The Österreich Army had a booth, as well as the lifeguard service, and many other public and private organizations that were seeking recruits. Here is a list from Swiss National Service of the sorts of things that they do.

health care
welfare
environmental protection
agriculture (small or alpine farms)
research projects
development assistance abroad

Here is what the Swiss have for National Service.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swiss_Civilian_Service

Here is what we once had for draft objectors in WWII

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civilian_Public_Service

Here is a group working to expand National Service today

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Service_Nation

Given the poor current job market for kids out of high school and collage, what do you think of such a program here? There are lots of kids who would get a lot more out of it than they put into it. At least for one year they would be given some direction and shown the world at large, and their own potential. Everybody would have to do it between the age of 18-24. Even Paris Hilton and her ilk would have to take part. Even if they only did a year total of basic military training and then civilian service it would improve the pool of recruits if we ever needed to enter a full mobilization. The National Guard is strained by overseas deployments, so having more National Guard members available for disastors would be a plus.

So what does everyone think? Too socialist?

And who is going to pay for it? I don't think we want Uncle Sam being a babysitter now do we? I want to see smaller Government and more power to the people.

AzMarc Wrote:

I firmly believe in 2 years of service to the country...be it military or other.

I think the worst thing that Jimmy Carter ever did was doing away
with the draft. I think everyone, starting with 18 year olds should
serve at least 2 years service. 18 years old or after completion of
HI- school.

....why don't you guys just spit on the constitution and burn the flag and be done with it. They didn't even have the draft during the Revolutionary War..............

wyatt Wrote:

Soyokaze 72MGB Wrote:

wyatt Wrote:

Not for military service.

Even the volunteers that we get, some of them, once in, don't want no part of it and can't wait to get out. Could you imagine a U.S. military, now, with conscripts, people pressed into serving, people that want absolutely nothing to do with the military, nope, I wouldn't wish that on anyone here. While I do agree it may do some good for some people, may give some people a chance at bettering themselves, but if they want that, they can volunteer for it and they actually have to want to change and better themselves.

You want to have national service, fine, have them picking up garbage on the side of the road, have them cleaning up the alleyways of NYC, Chicago, DC, LA and all the big inner cities.

Richard, when I was in the Military we had the draft, we also had people that was drafted that did not want to be there and could not wait to get out,but that does not mean that they did not serve and I might add that they did one hell of a job.
I could go no and on but what the hell.

I"m sure there are lots of jobs in the military that these people could do. House keep, latrine cleaning, kitchen work, yard work and painting.

m65gb Wrote:

Richard, when you were in the Marines if something had to be done did you stand to the back and let someone else do the job that had to be done? Or did you jump in and help?

I've always been a hands on type, even in the supervisory role, what's your point on this?

Military or civilian, I am also for a couple of years of service to this country. I do not think it is too much to ask of any individual living here. There is plenty to do, most countries who have national service only require it for a couple of years, and it can be, IMO, one of the best things to happen to a broad swath of the people who might never have either the opportunity or the will to do something outside of their own self-interest.

One comment on the draft, however. Whether you think the draft was a good or bad thing for military service per se, being drafted was probably the most egalitarian experience that anyone going into it has had or ever will have. Most of the time in our lives we have gotten to choose, actively or by default, where we live, who we associate with, what we do. When drafted, you are thrown in with folks from pretty much all parts of the country, all strata and all agendas. Maybe not the most accurate cross section of your fellow countrymen, but close enough, if you are paying attention.

InfantryYJ Wrote:

National Service could include such programs as JobCorp, yes the military, Coast Guard, Land based Search and Rescue groups, State based Emergency Service groups (like Australia has only not based on volunteers), as somebody else mentions even community based projects like maintenance of schools, historic buildings and maybe even the Humane Societies.

I spent 6 years in the Australian Air Force as a radio technician (OK I spent most of that time teaching electronics), I also spent time as a volunteer in Royal Volunteer Coastal Patrol (never been in a boat until joining), Wireless INstitute Civil Emergency Network (community based emergency communications group), District and Unit Radio Officer for State Emergency Services - all of which has combined to make me th person I am today. Did this hurt me in any way?? Not one iota and in fact enjoyed it all.

Yes, the discipline groups like these not only provide, but insist on, would do our youth a world of good, even though to some any form discipline would be a strange thing to face. If it ever came up for a vote I would support it 100%

m65gb Wrote:

Hey Wyatt:

They DID have a draft in the Civil war....late in the war...1864 or so they started drafting folks.

YOu could buy your way out however...

InfantryYJ Wrote:

Actually, during Viet Nam there were folks who bought their way past the draft and into the Guard/Reserve....or out of the draft....who'd a thunk it?

The "Po Folks" got stuck going if they were drafted because they couldn't buy their way out.

Some of those draftees were great, but many were an absolute pain in the butt.

I do not propose we go back to the draft, but two years of service to country could be in the military or other public service. A person could take his/her pick.

I would hate to be the supervisor of a bunch of city kids who were there to pick up sticks....ain't gunna work.

I was in the military 5 days after high school and the experiences were some of the best I've had in my entire life...I would not trade those experiences for anything. All be it, there were those times when it wasn't much fun.

I do remember that if a guy didn't go to drill, the Guard/Reserve would active the dudes...the Regular Army hated that because these guys were not very cooperative. Mostly after we no longer had a draft....'75 or so.

"Just think it it was enacted today, you've got a semi-unpopular war, you're coming off of an eight year run of republican reign, which many think is/was the downfall of the nation, so they are anti-government. The youth are a more liberal people than those that have matured a few years, so, enact it today, and see how many start throwing bitch fits. Today's youth were raised with an "all volunteer" force, they've never seen the draft cards getting burned in the square or on tv(I did). They didn't see the people flock to Canadia to avoid service, they didn't see this, only read about it in history books, so to them, it never existed and to be pressed into serving for your country, well, to them, that is just plain wrong."

Exactly why we need it. It gets back to what I have been saying for years, we have a "Me first, screw anyone else" generational attitude taking over our culture. These people expect a free ride with someone else pay their way. Sacrifice, to them, is someone else's job. They would sit on their collective butts and watch the US become socialist without a second thought but what they will get as a benefit. That is also the reason why the draft, or any kind of required government service program will never happen-just too much of an inconvenience to those who are/will be holding the reins.

Service needs to by a requirement, but not necessary in the fighting lines of our military. In those ranks I can fully see the folly of having someone more concerned about getting out of the service fighting next to those fighting to save the country out of pride. The person next to the fighting man needs to be someone that can be trusted to put his life on the line, not run like a child at the first loud noise

.....ask your German, French,or other European friends if they know why their ancestors came to America............MANY came to be free of conscription, and we also did away with indentured servitude eons ago.......the who concept of America is "without force".....free choice and the Bill of Rights is already taking a severe beating in this country, limiting even more freedom is NOT the way to garner respect for your nation.

...............sorry I couldn't have been more diplomatic in my original post..........but you guys knee jerked an opinion concerning this topic. We are being lead astray from our Constitution yearly, even monthly by those statists in power, this ship of state is dangerously listing to port ..........it must stop.

Gerry Wrote:

We should have only one national service and that should be the Military. Any other idea is a bad idea in my mind. We don't want any service competing for the volunteers we need for the military.

6863m Wrote:

Richard, What if one day you awake and nobody is volunteering?

What If?

I teach and deal with the whiny babies all day. I can't imagine doing it when lives depend on it.

On the othe hand, I would be really good for some of my students that are nothing more than CO2 factories to be forced to get off of their butts and actually do something productive. (seriously, I have some students that would suffocate if breathing wasn't invoulentary.)

I was the first group that had to sign up for Selective Service when it was reinstated. I remember the draft and I remember the TVfootage of 'nam every night on the news. I didn't serve, but I honor and appreciate those who do.

m65gb Wrote:

...case in point......do you guys really want my contrarian ass in the military, or working with young and impressionable school children who believe in the soft and fuzzy Disneyland world.............I think not.

wyatt Wrote:

I'm a big supporter of some kind volunteer of service to your country, whether military or otherwise. My own experience as a volunteer has helped me throughout my life and is a part of my life that look back on with both fondness and some pride.

Edit: When I was done writing this I realized I'd gotten pretty long winded. Sorry.

When I got out of college in 1971 I was immediately called in for my Draft physical. I failed it and was declared ineligible for military service. I won't lie about it. I was relieved. However I still felt a desire to serve my country in some way so I joined VISTA. VISTA was a federal program similar to the Peace Corps but on the domestic front. I was sent to Jasper County, South Carolina with a small group of other volunteers. We were paid a monthly stipend of $160 from which we had to pay all of our living expenses. Our term of service was one year.

While there we worked with the local Economic Opportunity Commission to aid the poor and needy in Jasper and Beaufort Counties but all we ever seemed to do with them was formulate funding proposals to be submitted to the feds. On our own we set up a program with the help of the Parris Island Marine Installation to dismantle buildings on the base board by board and distribute the materials to families who needed repairs to their homes but couldn't afford to buy them.

We also worked with the residents of one of the off shore islands. Their only source for shopping was to come to the mainland by boat (a 2 hour trip through hazardous waters unless you had a fairly substantial vessal). There was no bridge to the island and, in fact, there were no cars on the island. The federal government maintained a boat which provided service twice a week. It was an old WWII relic which listed about 15 degrees when sitting at the dock and very often didn't run. We wrote and sent a proposal to the GSA and to Senators Thurmond and Hollings and were able to secure a new boat for the island through Senator Thurmond's office.

I had been in SC for 6 months when Hurricane Agnes swept through central Pennsylvania and caused severe flooding throughout the Susquehanna River valley. VISTA put out a call for volunteers to transfer to PA to aid in the flood recovery effort. With my two projects in SC pretty much running themselves I was looking for something new and PA was closer to home so I transfered to Wilkes-Barre, PA with about 20 other volunteers from across the country. Many of the homes had been flooded to 4-5 ft on the second floor. They needed to be gutted so they could dry out before they could be repaired. We set up a program using HUD and CETA funds that would send out crews of unskilled labor (mostly HS & college students as it was summer) under the direction of a skilled volunteer to strip the homes down to the studs. I often went out on those jobs (as one of the unskilled) and that's where my love of carpentry had it's beginnings.

After 6 months my service to VISTA ended and I joined a newly started state funded program. Most of the residents forced from their homes were provided house trailers as temporary dwellings. The trailers were set up in large trailer parks built on the slag heaps left over from the coal mining in the area. It was like living on the moon. No grass, no trees, just rows of trailers sitting on a pile of rocks. The Parks and Recreation Service funded a small non-profit company to build playgrounds for the kids in each trailer park. The playgrounds were built using re-cycled materials such as old telephone poles, wood cable reels and tires and labor came from the communities. Building the playground was accomplished in one or two days and was much like an old fashioned barn raising. The men, women and children living the trailer park all helped construct the various swings and climbing structures or provided food and drinks. We supplied the tools and hands on supervision as well as gathering and transporting the materials to the jobsite. We were paid $250/week by the state. The program lasted for a year after which I returned home.

The enjoyment I got from building stuff during that time caused me to seek employment as a carpenter's helper and now 35 years later I'm still a carpenter and still love my work.

VISTA was dissolved during the Reagan Administration but perhaps a new program similar to VISTA could be a viable choice for volunteer service to the nation.

dcdci Wrote:

Reckon hospitals reduce patients bills when volunteers reduce their overhead or just pocket the extra profits? Always bothered me when hospitals charged the patients the same thing for blood that I donated as for blood acquired by other means. One hospital I used to donate to on a regular schedule decided that I could no longer be allowed free parking when I donated-staff and doctors needed more parking space instead.

I think some are missing the point being made by those Ryan is referring to. This is a service that would paid for just like the military and it will be used to do public service. We have just increased the Federal workforce by a significant number. Maybe that is the Obama jobs creation program.

They would then want to grant them college educations.

This is just one more huge public service and almost a welfare program. We need to put these people to work adding to the economy and learning skills. If you are going to spend a huge amount of money why not fund the adult education system.

I wonder how much money is in the latest abomination of a bill that is for adult education to help the inner cities youth actually learn a skill. I would bet there is very little and that should be one of the biggest numbers.

We will just continue and create a new lost generation of people who can't do anything but hang out on the street corner.

...sorry 6863m....but it is forced service he is referring to.

6863m Wrote:

InfantryYJ Wrote:

Gerry, I believe and have said many times we should funnel the billions into adult education. We need to get them off the streets and doing something gainful.

The key is getting the commitment from either the parents or the student. The problem to date has been that the kids or young adults got the same whether they went or stood on the corner.

Wyatt, if I read it wrong I would not be for conscription of any kind. I lived through both sides for many years.

Since everyone has read the bill can someone enlighten me how much money is slated for technical or adult education.

"We need to get them off the streets and doing something gainful."

The thing is that they have to WANT to do something else. Far too many expect to have things handed to them without any effort on their part. What's the old saw You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it drink?

As long as it is socially acceptable to do nothing but spot and steal things will not change. People have to want to change.

I've read through the posts and I do believe that some sort of service to the military is a good idea, but realistically wont happen because as some of you have stated the younger generation my generation would throw a hissy fit, and those who are forced into a service they don't want to do will end up doing a poor job. Joining the military should be something a person wants to do because they genuinely want to benefit our county.

Parenting/society norms :
as for the loss of my generation. Think on this.
for the past 5 years I have eaten my dinners alone, By a dim light reading, or haven't eaten at all, and just eaten whatever was around.
My sister sits alone eating her dinner.
My brother sits by his x-box playing games and eats alone.
My father sits on the couch yells at whatever game is on the tube, while eating his dinner alone.
My Mother sits in front of the computer on the internet and eats alone.
we eat whatever is around. maybe a microwave meal of some sort. or ramen noodles. not because we can't afford to eat better, we have deer, goose, chicken, beef, steak, pork in my basement refrigerator. That is occasionally made.

Six years ago this was a different story. My mom and dad would work together to make a meal of Steak, mashed potatoes, green beans, carrots. and the like. we would sit around a round light wood table with a matching lazy Susan. looking out at our backyard from 3 bay windows. We would swallow before we spoke. we would talk about the day, and what had happened. we would comment on the meal. and we would talk about school, home, work, sports ect. Dinner time was not only a time to eat, but enjoy my family's company.

Most of my generations family's function much the same way; tv, games, internet, phones during dinner. where dinner and other meals were "traditionally" a time to relax and talk with your family, Have become a time where we go farther into our alter-reality's and sit in isolation.

Dinner time and just quality time with your family teaches youth values and morals , because you gain a stronger bond with your parents, who in turn teach them their morals and values.
Today, not just during dinner but as a whole, every day all the time is time to teach simple values such as integrity, respect, responsibility, honesty, ect.. Parents have failed to teach children the Values that their parents taught them. Because they themselves and their children have drawn away into an isolated world of keypads, tv, phones and game controllers.
So is it any surprise that the Generation that has become isolated in its technology, become spoiled and...me.me.me. like.
because the generations behavior was condoned, by letting the youth have all they wanted by Phones tv games, expensive clothing purses, and pretty much anything the youth wanted .

I firmly believe that the way my generation acts is a reflection of their parents ability to parent. and simply say no to their child when necessary.

I believe the problem started with my generation. We were the hippies, the first to regularly promote drug use to "turn on and tune out" and promote "free love" without responsibilities. Every generation since then has become more self centered that the previous. Going to be a difficult trend to reverse

Nannie Wrote:

Gerry Wrote:

I too have to laugh at some of the notions here. At the time of the "hippie" draftees, there were a lot of officers and non-coms I knew who did not like draftees and many of their reasons were sound, even as Richard has pointed out. But a good many of them served honorably, and another number of them were dumped into the service by judges who thought it a good idea to exchange jail time for the draft.

The folks I served with ranged from folks who had become medical doctors and were drafted out of residencies, petty criminals, associate professors, trades people, assembly line workers, farmers, coal miners, students of various sorts (not just college), wealthy, poor, hippies, con men, lesbians, gays, protestors, law school grads, pimps, true hill billies, religious fanatics, and the list goes on and on. And these were draftees. I guess you could say that the draft boards helped clean the streets and put people to work.

Most did not stay on in the service, most went home. Some to their former lives, some to better lives, and some in a body bag. Many draftees line the Vietnam Memorial Wall. I am not about to judge that their sacrifice and service was of a lesser value than the professionals I also worked with. They may not have volunteered for their sacrifice, but they got it anyway. The old Brown Shoe Army guys I knew (like my CO and EXO) respected those who served well, and endured those who didn't as they always had, but they also knew which were which and when it came time to hand out promotions, generally gave them to those regulars or draftees who seemed to most deserve them. The placeholders in my unit were generally gotten rid of at the earliest convenience.

I don't advocate a draft as the best way to run the military, but I do know that a good many of us who were drafted came away with a greater appreciation of the cost of citizenship and honor than many who were not.

As an 'outsider' looking in - never cease to amaze and confound me.

That's you US guys, I mean. Keep it up, I'm lovin' the ride! :)

Chris

It keeps the youth of Israel busy I believe or has it stopped there. Had it in Australia and New Zealand at differant times.

slywelder Wrote:

Gerry i spite of our differences i know your a hard worker and a decent guy,i was just laughing and breaking ba?ls as friends would do. You are absolutly right that we have a different work ethic. Myself i didnt like to be broke,so since nobody was gonna give me money i had to get a job.We need those trade schools back,a lot of these kids today dont want to do physical work,just coumpters. I believe thats one reason were in trouble,college aint for everybody and if you have a skill it will always help,but most dony want to start at the bottom they want the big money up front.I have a neighbor whose a fireman,guy is still on the job at 58,he told me while the new guys are dedicated,most dont hav any type of basic mechanical knoweldge.Dont lose hope with your son,i know when we were his age we had families and responsibility but that was then. Your wife and you did your best and still do,at some point with the grace of God things can turn around,it does happen. What id like to see is a real war on drugs, i mean use every means we have to stop drugs coming into the country,its killing us,so much crime is drug related. One more thing,that "thank you" post of mine,i got a hair up my ass that day,i aint blaming GWB,God knows it took more then him. Dont know if your off tomorrow but hang in there and enjoy your day ---------Steve

Gerry Wrote:

sweep Wrote:

If you look at all the data and what was the cause of where we are, it started in the 60's. It was not the hippies making the decisions. It was the establishment using the voters of the 60's to change how Government was used. It was the 60's people in their twenties and thirties who used the system and started the dependent society we have today.

That is not to say a huge portion did just what Gerry did and I did. I went to work right out high school and into the Army. I have never been unemployed in my life so I was fortunate and worked hard.

Steve, autionwatch showed a chart yesterday that clearly shows what has happened with government as a result of the programs of the 60's. It also showed the deficit and debt of the WWII when it was 122% of GDP. So many will say what me worrying we did it before. Unfortunately the same Government has put us in the same situation with entitlements and not a war. Wars get completed entitlements do not. We all have to understand what entitlements have done and how they are committed and paid for. Until then we will just continue down the path.

People are making a big mistake by trying to justify today with what happened in 1950.

I did not intend on putting the blame on the hippies but rather that generation. Attitudes changed bigtime then and continued to worsen with every following generation. Unpopularity of the war, civil rights, drug availability and use and the new music styles all had to do with the changes of the attitudes. Lots of things changed in the 60's and 70's

Gerry, me neither I just wrote it clumsily.

AzMarc Wrote:

Gerry Wrote:

Soyokaze 72MGB Wrote:

I'm from the...ummm ma ma moouuwwwwwww generation.......

Terrible idea. We're already tip-toeing on the thin ice of indentured servitude with this country's tax system. We've still got a couple of months to go of working for the man til Tax Freedom Day 2009.

Uh, I thunk Mr 'O' was talking about a national policing force?
Socalist?
EVERYTHING HE PROPOSES IS!

I think, [go ahead diss me] a militia is the answer.

It could be for any 'VOLUNTEER' any age, meant to keep the guv'ment doing it's CONSTITUTIONAL duties.


Soyokaze 72MGB Wrote:

Soyokaze 72MGB Wrote:

Soyokaze 72MGB Wrote: