On the restoration fence

I bought a '79 B less than a week ago. I got a HECK of a good deal. It had been sitting for at least several years due to what I suspect was an "insurmountable" electrical problem. The problem, it turns out, was an ignition relay. One carb kit and one relay later, and I am the proud owner of a well running MGB. The body is in great shape other than a little bit of rust in front of and behind both doors (I have already scoped out the patch panels). It has been de-smogged, but still retains the charcoal cannisters and EGR valve (and stock Stromberg carb). It definitely needs a little bit of brake work, but nothing more than a rear cylinder replacement.

At first, when I got it running, I thought I might re-sell it, turn it around, and move on to another project. But something is keeping me from doing it. Maybe it was the ten or so miles I put on it with the top down, I don't know. So, I have decided to tinker. Typically, my projects are frame-off restorations, but I have never touched a non-American car before. Something deep down is telling me to go ahead and do a frame off resto on this car. I don't plan on upgrading much, but going back fairly stock (although I don't have any desire to do a reproduction car). You know, blasting parts and coating them as I rebuild, making sure that everything is mechanically and electrically sound. I also may swap out the rubber bumpers for chrome (I know, flame away), I just really like the looks of the chrome bumpered cars.

So, here are my questions:

Where am I going to get into trouble? Are there systems that I should leave alone (like the tranny, I won't be taking that apart, just replacing fluid...WAY beyond my capabilities).

What should I replace while I have it all apart? Any certain parts that just warrant a replacement or would be stupid not to upgrade when in pieces and easily accessible?

Zenith Stromberg carb. Is it worth replacing?

Further de-smogging? Charcoal canisters? EGR valve?

Any helpful tips, words of advice, sage wisdom?

This is a great forum here, by the way, my wife is already uneasy about how much time I have spent reading through things here (she has a formula that applies a factor to the time I spend on an automotive forum. This produces a dollar figure that she uses as an estimate of how much the bank account will get hurt. Smart Woman).

No frame its uni-body construction. castle-rails (runs under doors) are a three-piece construction and are critical. The condition of these rails needs to be determined before anything else, not just the outer skin.

So I would be looking for some substantial rust issues at the frame under the doors. Is the quarter panel rust a sign of this potential castle-rail issue? Is there anything one can do to improve on the frame due to it's non-unibody construction? Welding, for example? Or is this construction for flexibility? I think I read something about this in the library section before I went and looked at this one, but I was looking more at the rectangular body piece directly below the door.

The cars are rigid and well constructed. If the car is in good condition (rust wise) no need for additional parts. Start by checking the rails from inside and underneath.

Do the brakes - gotta stop. Change the oil and coolant hoses. Drive it for a while. Then decide what to replace the Zenith with after you've done some research. You probably will want to replace it. By driving it you'll know where to spend your time and money.

10/4 on the rails. I will check them out.

John, probably up there in the top five "words of wisdom" category. I had spent all my time planning on how to take this car apart when I should just drive it a little bit.

I am still curious about the de-smogging though. I had issues with gas in the charcoal canisters / anti-run-on valve, etc. I am wondering if I should keep them. I saw a post earlier this evening with some engine bay pics and most of those did not have any of it. Looked nice and clean.

I believe most people leave the charcoal canister. You can rebuild it with charcoal used in an aquarium. Here's an article on it:

http://www.theautoist.com/carboncannister.htm

Nor sure about the anti-run-on valve, but you'll get an answer shortly.

Alex -
Welcome! I'm a relative newbie to this forum myself, though I owned several MGBs years ago. I've been working on a '77 'rehabilitation', using an old '69 rust bucket I've had as a parts car. If you've spent time perusing this forum, you'll have a good idea of what needs to be done. But here's an off the top of my head list, based mostly on my reading here than deep experience....

1) rust - as already mentioned. It's the hardest thing, though many are successful and it sounds like you're equipped to deal with it. If you have rust poking through before and aft of the doors, then the rockers/sills are likely compromised - at least a little - underneath as well. Up to you how far you want to go - lots of info on this forum.

2) brakes - unless you know exactly what was replaced, when, and how, it's worth checking / replacing / rebuilding everything (MC, calipers, wheel cylinders, and especially the hoses, etc.). Rebuild parts are cheap, and systems are generally quite simple. I ended up moving the non-servo assisted brake system (including lines) from the '69 to the '77 (the '77 had an engine fire that ruined everything in the engine bay). BTW - this should include all the clutch hydraulics too.

3) suspension - the front (and sometimes rear) suspension bushings usually need to be replaced. Most will recommend poly bushing, with dramatic handling improvements. The "might as well's" usually leads to removing, blasting, painting, etc the entire front cross member, and for the later cars, often includes lowering the suspension to chrome bumper height with new springs. I've just finished rebuilding mine, but have not yet got if off the jack stands to check it out (sigh).

4) Along with suspension, the steering rack (or at least the boots) often needs servicing as well. I ended up needing a new rack (double sigh).

5) Electrical - go through the entire harness, cleaning all connections and grounds. Search on adding relays for headlights, cooling fans, etc to reduce the load on the switches and improve performance and reliability (search for the Advance Wiring diagrams...). If PO really hacked up the old one, you can get new harnesses at reasonable prices (I had to...)

6) Ditch the ZS carb for either the earlier dual SU's (HS4 of HIF) - which most folks here will recommend - or for a Weber (which a lot of folks here actually have!). While the ZS is said to be workable, the altneratives are said to be much better performing and more reliable. I can speak to safety as well, as the PO of my '77 had his ZS dripping gas on the exhaust manifold which caused the fire that trashed it,

7) Add a rebuilt distributor (search "schlemmerized" and you'll get a flavor....),

8) plan on replacing the heater control valve someday (search for "heater valve alternatives"), heater box core / fan, side cover gaskets, and a host of other typical projects.

I've done (or are doing) all these and more. None are terribly difficult (I'm no mechanic).

Have fun! I am!
Bob

These cars are ideal for "roling restos". Get all the mechanicals up to par, take good care of the body, and you'll have a real keeper. You can add some performance mods like backdating the carbs and exhaust to chrome bumper specs, same goes for the ignition. Brakes can be upgraded with stainless hoses, new brake lines (cupro-nickel from Moss), and better quality brake pads like Hawk or Greenstuff. Poly bushings all around for handling, rebuilt stock shocks from Peter at Worldwide Auto, new leaf springs and coil springs. Work out all the bugs and you won't regret keeping it for a minute!!!

Wow Bob, that sounds like a good project. Much like my last one (a friend's 1983 CJ7 ... and $25,000 later...luckily it was my friends pocketbook that was taking the brunt of the trauma). That is a good run-down and exactly what I was looking for (and afraid of). It's kind of funny though, John's comment above is resonating with me. I have driven the car maybe 10 miles and I am already designing it's deconstruction. It might be kind of fun to actually drive it around a little bit!

The dual SU's look intriguing. Is that something that can be purchased used fairly easily? Or does one shell out for the shiny ones in the Moss catalog?

Jeff,

Curious. You advise backdating the ignition to chrome-bumper specs. I am not completely sure, but I think that the distributor in the 79 is an electronic ignition (again, not completely sure). Is the points style a better performer (I guess I am more used to replacing a points style distributor with a hot MSD setup or something similar, but not the other way around).

I do appreciate all of the feedback....

Alex - John's absolutely right - DRIVE IT! I'm jealous - I've been doing all this work, but don't even have the #%@$%^ running yet, as I had to strip out the engine bay from the fire, and then the 'while I have a striped out' items kept piling up. Hopefully by Christmas, which isn't exactly convertible weather in New England.

Re: SU's, you can find used SU's pretty readily and economically. Search for "Jimmy Hilton" for lots of commentary on getting SU's rebuilt and polished to boot. Also look in the trader section hear.

BTW - my list is neither mandatory (except the brakes) nor exhaustive, but I think pretty typical for at least a comprehensive 'rehab' if not restoration.

Alex,
These guys covered everything I'd suggest. I'm putting our car back together now. It's pretty much been a complete redo. I haven't added it up but I think I'm in the $7,000 range and half of that is in paint shop cost. The only place I've not planned to do is put a bunch of money in the interior. The car is a 77' that got dual HS4's from Jimmy Hilton, distributor(25D) rebuild from Jeff Schlemmer(advanced distributors), relays from Eric Marshall(bits4brits), rebound straps from rusty(broken heart studios), parts from Gordon at the BHive(my favorite), Moss, Victoria British, and a couple of used items from other forum members, and two years of spare time tinkering by me.
Check out the "Awakening a Sleeping MG" article in the library. If you go through the checklist you'll be well on the way.
Get a wiring diagram from advanced autowire site. Get a Haynes(or Bently) manual. Get a Rick Astley wiring for the MGB book. Study these forums, read and search. That's how I did it.

My advice would be to get the brakes sorted, make sure it steers as it should and drive it.

You said it was maybe driving it for a short while that brought about your decision to keep it, so if you spend lots of time & money on restoration/refurbishment, you won't be driving it.

Rust can be a problem, but it has to be pretty serious rust to make the car unsafe. As long as the floors and sills are sound, the rest is cosmetic and it's up to you how you feel about the appearance of the car.

I would tend to agree with the others. Get it safe and drive it some. First thing to tackle is BOTH the hydraulic systems and brakes. Unless you absolutely know the history of the hydraulic systems, it would be wise to do a complete overhaul. In the end you will save yourself a lot of agravation. Changing out one cylinder after another as they fail is false economy and dangerous. And like I said, do the clutch cylinders & hose too. Just about every other week someone is posting on here about why they can't get the car in gear.

One thing I caught was your mention of converting to a chrome bumper car. If I were you, I would decide right now if thats what you really want. It costs basically the same identical money and labor to do either a CB or RB car. So if I wanted a CB (which I did;) ) I would fix the RB up a little, sell it and buy a CB car to do. I have nothing against a RB car but sounds like yours needs some sill work. So before I undertook doing sills, a complete restoration plus a CB conversion, it would make more sence to start with a real CB in the first place.

As far as restorations go. Whatever you do, it has been my experiance that it is always easier to take one of these apart to bits than it is to put one back together. You may want to keep that in mind.

Here is my hat.

Survey the car thoroughly, including looking carefully for the tin worm.

If there is a significant rust issue you might want to re-think a resto and just do some sensible mods in order to put the thing on the road and enjoy it for a while. Restoring the sills/rockers/floors/etc. is right up there with engine rebuilding as far as time and expense is concerned.

Do some homework and leg work talking to shops and individualas and looking at catalogs in order to determine what the likely time and expense is going to be if they do the work.

If you decide to move forward, the next big step is to find out about the engine condition. The usual compression and leak down tests apply, as does driving the car for a while in order to ascertain oil leakage/consumption, noises, oil pressure, and such.

Once that is confirmed move into the suspension and brake realm. Look things over carefully and sit down with a catalog and compile part numbers/prices/descriptions on a legal pad. Total that up and combine it with labor estimates from a competent shop if you aren't going to do the work yourself.

If I had to pick one improvement that should be made on a single carb B it would be to ditch the intake and exhaust system and retro fit back to a set up comparable to 1973-74 and earlier. Absolutely the most bang for the buck, and it is all external.

The next thing would be to retro to an earlier distributor, with or without a Pertonix.

Making the car stop is of prime importance, so if you find that the brakes need significant attention, and at this age they probably will need the full Monte, be sure to factor in those costs before you spend all of your lunch money on the engine.

In a nut shell, you need to look at the car as a whole, not as individual repairs. If the numbers don't add up for you budget, ditch the car and move on to something that is in better shape to begin with.

Remember, the first rule of MGBdom is that Momma must be happy with what happens. If she isn't you will find no comfort in sleeping in a worn out reclined MG seat in a cold garage.

Jack

This is a DIFFERENT OPINION- pro rubber bumper B's-
I've had chrome bumper B's and Rubber bumper B's. They are all wonderful fun cars. They are fairly primitive and easy to work on.

Rubber bumper cars are really great, once you change a few things.(details discussed below)
The RB cars have a higher, very convenient ride height
doesn't bottom in pot holes or rough spots.
easier to enter and exit
lot less parking lot dents in the grill and rear areas

The late ones have good suspension performance so they corner and handle quite well (not true of late '74's and '75's). Nonetheless, chrome bumper cars can, when in good condition, handle a bit better than the RB cars.
The rubber bumper cars have a roomier engine compartment, and the cooling fan arrangement is superior.
The rubber bumper cars have vacuum assisted braking, which many prefer.

+++ The rubber bumper cars can use some updating to make them a much better car. +++++
I retrofitted chrome bumpers to give the B a prettier, earlier (imho) better look
I replace the dumb cable hood actuation setup with a bellcrank arrangement so it opens from in front of the car and it will not fail and become an expensive repair. I always hated the cable arrangement, so I designed a simple alternative.
I replace the intake and exhaust manifolds. I use a twin carb manifold and an appropriate exhaust manifold to fit. I have retrofitted fuel injection to my B, but most use either Twin SU's or an aftermarket Weber setup. Air pump is gone.
If the engine needs a freshening, I do rods and main bearings, and add the high compression pistons used in earlier B's.
I replace the igntion with a crane setup (about $100 or so).
I replace the dumb 4 fuse fusebox with the GM setup from an old Camaro or related car
I replace the alternator with a GM one. The Lucas is expensive, loww performance and not long term reliable (in my experience). I use a simple set of brackets I made, but commercial ones are available.

X2 on the alternator conversion to a Saturn style alternator,I did`nt have to do any mods to the brackets except for slightly grinding the adjuster arm.
You will find that these cars are simple to work on and parts are readily available.
The ignition upgrade will make the engine more reliable and parts for the 78 dist.are no longer available so if it breaks You will be doing something different for ignition any ways.
adding in additional relays definetely improves the overall functions of the electrical components and takes the load off of the single ignition relay.
Drive it and get the feel of the car and in the mean time stash some money aside{without the wifes knowledgeLOL} so when You decide to do the full restoration it wo`nt seem like such a big wham from the bank account.:thumbsup:
Mine MG is a RB and I do`nt figure I will ever change to a lower suspension or chrome bumpers,I just enjoy the little car for what it is.It does handle better than anything else I have ever owned and that is good enough for Me.

Hey Peyson,

No advise from me... I'm a new owner looking for answers myself. Just wanted to say welcome to the forum.

Kevin

Much thanks to all who provided feedback (or just bid me hello). I am making two lists. List one includes those things that need immediate attention (brakes, hydraulics, electrical)

List two includes all those things that I would like to do (dual carb setup, although I don't know enough to know what carbs those are yet, dizzy upgrade, CB mod maybe?).

List one goes first and quick. List two goes as time and money permit, because I am going to DRIVE the car. Why not...

There will always be time for deconstruction later.

In that first list. Would the fuse box upgrade fit? And are relays something that I (being somewhat comfortable with electrical systems) could do myself, by my own design?

I'd leave the fuse box right now - just clean up the contacts. But do add relays to the horn and headlights. Pretty simple. Eric Marshall, Limey on this site, has a fairly inexpensive kit pre-wired - $40. Here's the link: http://www.bits4brits.net/Relays.html If you're really going to dig in, and you're comfortable with electrical stuff, get a copy of Rick Astley's book MGB Electrical Systems. It's a good investment, and has a number of upgrades you can do yourself.

For sure relays are an easy thing to add. Often they are available for about $3 each. I buy at least 10 at a time, since they are so useful for many applications (trailer lights, etc). You can pay up to about $20 each for the same relay, sometimes with 15 cents of wire attached.

There are a number of items which you can do with the car on the road, and others you can accumulate the parts for and have ready for a minimum of downtime.

Just my 2 cents --but if youre going to do the fuse box --get Limeys complete kit with relays included and youre well covered on saving the strain on the old switches etc its just a little more money than just the relay kit and updates the fuse box as well -I have it on my 71 GT and my 76 roadster --nice update for the money ..

Just for comparison, there is a 10 pack of relays with sockets and wires on ebay for $20. Link is

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/10-PACK-12V-30-40A-OEM-Style-Relay-5-Wire-Socket-SPDT_W0QQitemZ380137260160QQcmdZViewItemQQptZMotors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories?hash=item5881f24480

A very nice thing about these relays is that you can use the 5 terminal ones as a selector for high and low beam in a simple circuit, as well as a regular on/off relay. This way the selector on the stalk never sees high current draw. I'm attaching a diagram which shows how the relays work and one way to use them as I have.

Fix the brakes, drive it like a drunk supermodel who fell for you for the night, and if you fall in love with it, then nothing else really matters; you will spend whatever it takes to make it yours forever.

If it does not "take", you had some fun and you won't be much out of pocket.

Pete