Poll: Should I lower a rubber bumper car

I have an 80 B that I purchased as a kit car in boxes and it is headed to the sandblasters and painters next month for a total tub rehabilitation. Standard engine and overdrive configuration on an LE. Knowing that the RB cars do sit higher, I was contemplating lowering the car with 550# 1" lowering springs and the rear lowering springs from Moss (or another supplier if you have someone better) in the thought of making the car appear a little better on its stance. The purpose of the car will be a touring car, not for fast street. Well maybe a fast corner or two when the law's not looking.

So what do you think, is lowering a good idea or waste of money for a 80LE B?

Lee,

I used the Moss 550# lowering springs and also installed a front sway bar on my 75 RB car. It made a world of difference in the handling. I also installed the lowered rear springs but after the installation measured the ride height and it only changed by 1/4". Took them off and sent them back. Couldn't see paying that much for that 1/4" drop.

As Pat says, but I ordered competition springs and lowering blocks from Moss UK. Wired good!!

Installed the 550 front springs and rear lowering blocks. Very happy with the look and handling improvements.

Got my lowering blocks from Doug Jackson http://www.mgbmga.com/

I have the stock height on my 77 and I have no complaints. The later Bs come with the sway bars anyway, so handling is not that bad. I also like that I can get in and out easier.. something to consider... as I have some knee and shoulder problems. I was going to lower it, but decided I dont need to bend down any more then I have to. Like you said, this is not going to be some "fast street" car, just for touring... I say if that is the case, leave it be and save your cash for something else.

I machined my own 1 1/4" lowering blocks for the rear and still needed to re-drill the leaf spring hangers to get the back to the right hight. The front's easy. I just used lowering springs for the front.

Don't forget that you will need to do something with the bump stops so they don't hit on the suspension, front and rear.

If you need to re-drill the leaf spring hangers, here a link that shows how it's done:
http://www.mgexperience.net/phorum/read.php?1,858623

Scroll down to the post by Peter Sherman. I found his instructions very useful.

If you are looking to improve handling then definately lower it. Very easy to do. Also I just listed a kit on Ebay for a car that I was going to lower but sold. Installed a kit on a fomer bosses car, worked great. Check out my Ebay listing and save alot. item number 250540147970

Only lower the front and add a 3/4 sway bar, you will be happy with the way she looks and drives. You will always be going faster because you are going down hill. I did this to my 78 "B" and it turned out well.

sorry for the repeat post was having computer problems

I had a 75 that was stock and it seemed that the rear sagged a little. I wanted a level look. I actually made my own coil spring compressors. It was a bit crude, but it worked. Strips of heavy metal and a large bolt through the middle. I could set the height where I wanted it.
Be aware that this may shock some people and this probably messed a little with the front geometry, although it drove fine and handled the turns tighter.

I lowered a 79B, was easy and worked out well. was going to lower my 77B but sold the car. just so happens I listed the kit on Ebay today. Item # 250540147970 if your interested. I'm fifty dollars cheaper than Moss.

I did, with the Moss springs/lowering blocks, and am happy with the way the car rides, looks, and handles. The looks were the biggest improvement.

I'm happy with both the look and the handling of my stock '78.

I'm among those that use their B for touring vs. hard driving and appreciate the extra clearance and less choppy springs of the lowered cars.

Of course, when I was younger and performance was everything, I lowered my cars...

:drinking:

go lower:devil:

Converted mine a couple of years ago. One of the best things I've done

I know I'm the lone voice in the wilderness here.....BUT there is only one way to properly lower a rubber bumper car.....get the spring pickup points back to chrome bumper position. Easy in front...use chrome bumper crossmember. Hard in back because you must remove the welded on pieces the factory used to raise the car. If you use ANY OTHER system in back you will have very little suspension travel and the resulting problems.....lowering blocks, de-arched springs etc....no matter...they all equal no travel before hitting the bumpstop. I will be doing my '77 this winter and will post a "how to" if anyone is interested.

I lowered my '77 GT and it was a good idea. Its looks much better and drives better too.
I used lowering springs up front and a "3/4 anti sway bar and out back I had a spring place take leaves out of the springs.

Paul ;-)

Use the reverse eye springs. Better quality the the run of the mill springs, plus a better solution.
The eye at the front of the top leaf of the spring is flipped over onto the bottom. Gives you two inches.

<<< my '77 with the Sebring valances......

We lowered our 74.5

Lowered 80 LE here. Love it.
I was evaluating two cars at the time of my purchase. The handling of the lowered 80 LE so out-shone the other rubber bumpered car I was looking at that it swayed my purchase, to the point that I probably bought the wrong car in terms of required body work, etc.

Tim

Lee,

Please keep in mind that lowering the front by changing springs will change the front end geometry and create a bump-steer condition. The handling is definitely improved but you will feel the bump steer on rough roads.

Bill

Put the sway bar on and drive it.

Lower it and do a chrome bumper conversion as well.

Someone here does dropped spindles which , as I understand is the best answer all around for the front...

I lowered my 1980 and love the way it corners. Its money very well spent. I also installed HS-4's and that was also a premium upgrade.

Lower it, you will not regret it.

I lowered my 77 B with the lowering kit that I got from Gordon at the BHive and I love the look and the handling. i am glad I did.

use reverse eye springs on the rear.

Lloyd.

I appreciate your comments. I would be very interested in seeing how you did the rear of the car. I have never see the 'right' way this is done and always felt that messing with lowering blocks etc was not as clean.
I did the front end cross member change a while back but went back to the original (1980) setup because I had some clearance issues with the bottom front pulley on the engine and the early cross member - it does not have the cut out clearance that the late cross members do. How have you addressed this? Did you modify the cross member?
tc

Heaven's forbid, but I'm coming out in support of Lloyd :). He is correct. The only "proper" way to lower a rubber bumper car to chrome bumper height is to change all of the suspension pickup points back to the original design and also the rear bump stop location.

My recomendation has always been to lower the car to the chrome bumper MGBGT V8 specification, which is about 3/4" higher ride height than the standard four cylinder car.

The chrome bumper MGBGT V8 was fitted with the raised crossmember and revised steering rack location to clear the V8 engine. It used shorter springs than were fitted to the later rubber bumper cars.

Fitting the 1" drop 550lb springs brings the rubber bumper cars down to about this ride height, giving a good combination of suspension travel and stiffness necessary to support the heavier bumpers.

At the rear of the V8 cars the front spring mounting point was dropped to the position we see in the later RB cars. This was done to raise the ride height to match the front and also reduce oversteer. The rear spring mounting point was kept at the same chrome bumper location and Lloyd believes that the original chrome bumper bump stop location was retained. This has to be verified.

To raise the ride height further for Federal bumper requirements the rear spring location was dropped raising the back end of the car further and the bump stop location was revised.

Lloyd's concern is that changing the height of the rear axle, by either spacers, relocating the mounting points or reverse eye springs brings the axle too close to this revised bump stop. Under emergency maneuvering the limited rear axle travel could cause snap understeer when the axle impacts the bump stop. He has a very good point.

Unfortunately, relocating this bump stop mounting to the original chrome bumper location requires a lot of surgery. But it is necessary to give the car the same handling as was originally designed. I'm looking forward to more information about this modification from Lloyd.

One point not addressed is that if a later 77-80 car is to be converted back to chrome bumper ride height by relocating the rear spring mounts, there is also a lot of surgery required if the factory rear sway bar is to be retained.

So getting back to the original point. Lowering the RB MGB down to chrome bumper height is going to reduce suspension travel and could cause dangerous handling if the suspension impacts the bump stops under emergency maneuvering. I do not recomend using 2" drop front springs to achieve this lower ride height.

Using 1" drop front springs does get the ride height to approximately the same location as the original MGBGT V8, which was the car the crossmember and steering rack were originally intended for. There are no adverse handling effects or bump steer caused by this modification.

Using 1" lowering blocks or reverse eye springs at the rear of the car will reduce rear suspension travel. However the effects of this don't show up in regular driving. We will have to await Lloyd's posting to understand what is entailed to relocate the rear bumpstops, or look for other ways of increasing rear suspension travel by modifying the existing mount.

kelvin

Tom....I used the chrome bumper vibration damper.

As I figured, there isn't much interest in this. Most (all?) forum members probably don't corner their cars hard enough to get into trouble with the rear suspension hitting the bump stop in a corner. Therefore they can get away with lowering blocks, de-arched springs, reversed spring eyes...whatever. If they ever have a problem while cornering and something happens to cause the suspension to bottom (like hitting a small bump)....then they will get first hand experience on what 'snap oversteer' feels like....hope they don't hit anything.

Thanks Kelvin...........feels like I'm pissin' into the wind here. Nobody wants to know about something that's hard. Snap oversteer is dangerous. It can result from a number of different things....like leaf springs that are too flat (de-arched to the point they won't compress and bind) or the axle hitting the bump stop...but the bottom line is that the suspension stops moving and the car spins uncontrollably. I like the idea of lowering a rubber bumper car...but not just for looks.

BTW you don't have to modify the rear bar on a '77-'80 car. They are the only years I've done and it was just a 'bolt it back in deal'. With the pick up points moved, the rear bar in, a 3/4" front bar and 6" wheels, the '77-'80 becomes the best handling MGB ever made.

I have felt that snap oversteer...not fun.. it is very unsettling as the car feels predicatable if a bit 'high on center' and then wow....what was that...the worst I encountered was a railroad track in a corner that I used to cross on the way to a summer job many years ago...it would really cause the car to snap around...

anyway...a CB vibration damper...that could revive my desire to give the front end redo a try again...OK, now I wish I could find the old streering rack I had modified to fit the late model steering column...I think I tossed it in a fit of 'clean up this crap'

On the rear...my original car is was an 80 but the body I used for the resto was a 76. I did not know there were differences in the late model B's regarding rear suspension except for the fitment of the rear swaybar. I thought that the rear swaybar mounts were present, just no bar installed from 74 1/2 to 76. Is that incorrect? In the comments above, it sounds like the factory also changed the suspension mounting points and the bump stop?
tc

Lloyd, you make good points. Limiting the rear suspension travel would give you the same problem as a TR3 or solid axle TR4. They will swap ends in a heartbeat when the axle bottoms.

I did one of these 1" deals for a customer with the frt springs and rear blocks. I can't say I was all that impressed but then there was no way to really test it. I'd venture to say that most that are happy with this conversion are mostly influenced by the looks. Handling is probably percieved to be better because you are lower to the ground and more negative camber up frt makes it darty. Again, many would take this as quicker responce. I think it's like a loud exhaust. Makes you feel like it's faster even if it ain't. Only way I know to really evaluate this stuff is on the track...at least if you want to live to tell about it.

ah, got it... makes sense...

I've often wondered if on the rear mounting position, if you could get a drill in there, it looks like it would be quite easy to create two holes higher up the bracket and thus lower the rear part of the suspension. Is that the strategy you plan on employing?

I've since done some searching and have ordered an addco rear swaybar kit for 75-76 that includes the mounting brakets to the body...I'll be interested to see how they work out as I've not seen a picture...first time i've ordered sight-unseen.... fingers crossed.
tc

Tom....if you get a chance to look under a chrome car....pay attention to the rear spring mounts. See the indentation in the frame rail for the shackles to clear? Inside that indentation is a welded in tube that carries the rubber bushings for the shackle mount. On a rubber car, that area is still there on the frame but is covered over by a welded on extension that moves that tube away from the frame.....if you peel all that welded on stuff off, the original frame rail is still there.....you drill it and weld in a new tube (or the original one if you didn't destroy it when taking it off).

The bump stop is moved toward the axle by a welded in area in the 'C' shaped frame area above the axle. To change this back to chrome spec, you have to remove the welded in stuff and then reweld the little plug (that holds the rubber bump stop) to the frame.

In the front of the spring....mostly just redrilling the mounting area after some clean up welding.

I TIG weld everything, but the frame is thin...it could easily be gas welded or MIG welded. The hard part is getting the old stuff off without destroying the frame metal.

Lloyd,

That makes sense... I can see what you mean about the rear spring mount. Given that the factory, with the GT V8 only moved the front and left the rear spring mounts, I wonder if you could go part way there by moving the fronts back up to CB height (simple drilling) but leave the rear (to avoid the welding etc...although a decent welder or at a shop could probably do it in a couple hours?) - would this have any ill effects? or is all of this pointless without the bumpstop body modifications?
tc

thanks for clearing that up...so when the factory did the GT v8 they were adding a little more understeer? to counteract the added power?

And I've looked at a few comparisons of the rear bumpstops from early and late models. Looks like a pretty straighforward bit of cutting/welding to get rid of the extra bits. It is surprising given all the welding done to these cars that these three small bits are not tackled at the same time more often.
tc

Well I have my '63 up on jack stands with pretty much everything removed and I have my '80 parked next to it so if you wanty me to snap some pics and post, just say so......

Perhaps a pic is worth a thousand words...........

wow.........1085 posts....people must be curious about this topic.

I also have a 80 and a 73. I would leave your 80 the 1" higher. I find that the 80 rides better then the 73.

I have tried several things to get it my 75 lower -love the look- but the ride isn't right. It bottoms out way to easy. tried dif set of springs, 2" lower didn't drop it more then a 1/2", tried 1" lower worked "ok" re-arked and rev loops, then took the 2" drop and another leaf added, boy did that help the handling enough that my wife noticed it in the mountains, But I have to remember not to have my tongue sticking out like MJ or I'll lose it. The loose of travel really sucks, so Lloyd when you do your pics would be great or if anyone else knows how to do this I would love to hear from you.

ok whos got pics?

With the bump stop, just cut about 20mm off the rubber. 5 minute job. I did, to that line on the rubber. cured my snap oversteer.
You need at least 2.25 inches of up ward movement when you are at ride height otherwise the bumpstop will contact in corners and lever weight off the inside wheel, via the outer. This causes snap oversteer which is just as nasty as it sounds. It feels like an elephant just gave the back of the back of the car a big shove, at the worst possible moment. Unless you are very quick (and you can't be quick all the time) it will put you in a spin.

sorry..bad typing

someone mentioned redrilling the hangers.

http://www.mgexperience.net/phorum/read.php?1,858623,859367#msg-859367

scroll about half way down

I asked that question and Lloyd had a very good answer as to why this should NOT be done...

"VERY BAD RESULTS. On a leaf spring car, the degree of understeer or oversteer designed into the rear suspension is identified by looking at the rear spring angle from the side view. If the front of the spring is lower in relation to the rear.....you have designed in understeer...look under the rear of a little Jap pick up (like a mid 90s Nissan) see how the springs slant down in the front? Factory wants to control that oversteering tendency that an empty pick up has.

If the front is higher than the rear (the condition you have described) you will have dialed in oversteer....a very bad thing. Chrome MGBs have the springs nearly level."

As I understand it from this thread, all three areas need to be tackled together (front hanger, rear hanger, bump stop) to ensure accurate placement and movement of the rear spring. None are difficult in themselves but they should be tackled as a trio...lower suspension that wrecks the geometry will create worse problems than its original state.
tc

My '78 suspension is stock. I've also got a stock '95 Miata. Both cars are on 185 section tires. Both weigh about the same. Even in spirited (but not stupid) driving, they'll both corner way faster than I ever should on a public road - so I don't see the point lower the MG. The only place I find the Miata significantly better is on a rough road. The difference there is the more supple IRS vs the solid axle. Lowering the MG wouldn't help that....

I can't see the reasoning behind that. having the back springs higher than the tront, I can see that, more roll at the back. but a tiny increase in the angle of the rear springs? especially when you have the shackles moving the rear of the spring up and down anyway .
I'm sure someone will enlighten me though :)
I'm running one inch blocks as well as the redrilled hangers, and a 22mm front antisway bar. Perhaps all that's compensating but I've got no over steer. I can induce a little with the throttle of course. Even in wet weather it's fairly neutral. Also I'm using a lighter engine gearbox combination, by about 30kg (the alloy rover and toyota supra box) and even have a tow bar on the back!

Yo, Mine was lowered by the PO and he did it the old way...he reversed the leafs, (turned them upside down)...and cut the front coils. I know, I know - it isn't "proper" but she handles well. My 79 has been set up this way since 1994 and she still rides quite well. I know I KNOW the geometry isn't "proper" but she still handles well. She sits 2.5 inches lower than stock.

However, this spring if I have the ambition, and probably will - after she gets the OD in my 77 I will be rebuilding the front/rear end to refresh her back. I'm going with the Moss 1" inch lowering kit and lowered 1" leafs in the rear with Black Poly bushings. The rear springs are gonna need refreshing - and since I can do it, I will. The bushings in front are okay - for 15 years old, but I want to replace them with the black Poly bushings. And I've got a tie-rod boot that is broken, need to refresh that too!

But man, she looks cool. If I don't do it this spring, it'll happen fall of 2010. Kelvin rules by the way -- as he is authentically correct when it comes to these cars. I won't miss when I go over an uneven dip in the road and my car hits the bump stops in the back. My last car was lowered the same way - (a '76 B) ), by a local guru, Sid Olsen. He truly is a great MG knowledge-bank of data. All his cars are without frills, and all run very well. I've owned this one since 2000 and it hasn't given me a snitch of issue. Also, if I go over too many waves in the road that are too close together, the front tires sort of skip over the waves, instead of "ride" them. So, I swerve around them - cause I can. But, I'd rather drive through them and feel more control.

Although, since the suspensions geometry is incorrect - I have grown accustomed to maneuvering around various bumps, sewer covers, etc to avoid the strange suspension characteristics that go with an incorrect lowering-job. Under regular driving conditions, on flat roads, curves, consistent roads with little deviations - she handles better than most B's with 5 times better suspension - but under un-even conditions, there's a drop in suspension handling, not too bad - but not consistent like if I had a 1" inch lowered B - versus a 2.5 inch lowered B. Be cool if there was way to lower it electronically like some cars do now under tougher, more aggressive driving conditions, then have it raise itself under regular driving conditions. I guess if money wasn't an issue - that could be a "Mod" too.

You might want to look at this situation Very differently.
The situation you describe is the same but times have changed.

A late model B already handles pretty well. BUT They run like crap.

Invest the same money and time to
breathe some real performance into the car
and get a car with good balance of handling and power.

Remember, the stock late model B is so underpowered
you can't really hardly challenge the suspension.

For about the same expenditure- less than a thousand dollars and a few weekends
of fiddling- spend money on motor performance.

The best is to add fuel injection and high compression pistons. Now you will have a much
more fun car to drive. It will outperform the early B's, and it will start and run right all the time.

A while ago I would have said , "yes, put a V8 in" and it does make for a very nice car, lovely to drive and does indeed challenge the suspension.
Now however I think that the super charger is the way to go. I prefer the Hans Peterson version to the moss one.
http://www.hi-flow.com/

There is more fun involved. Although th V8's goes like a rocket, and are quicker than 99.9 % of the traffic, there are faster cars around for the filthy rich to acquire at a whim and most of the v8'ers will tell you MGB V8's are about the fun factor. And they are fun without any doubt.
The super chargers don't add anything like the torque of the V8, but once the V8 is in it will run faultlessly seemingly for ever. Just change the oil every now and again. The Supercharger crew are always adjusting their set ups for optimization. More fun.

Ok here a question for you all-
I have lower my 75 and it bottomes out on the bump stop sometimes, Which has had me go the a much stuffer leaf spring and the ride sucks, The rubber bumper had the rear mounting brackets changed so could you just remove the "new' bump stop and just replace it with a much smaller piece of rubber. Was the reason that the bump stop was lower because of the shocks limited travel or the leaf spring. If all that was done was weld up the two "old" mounting spots-leaf spring and bump stop- to raise the car if you removed/replaced the bump stop then there should be any clearance issues RIGHT"?

Another question if one purpose of the leaf spring to keep the axle located correctly, them could you go to a beeded up single leaf and add coil overs and still handle correctly be safe but be able to fine tune our ride????????

Can you redo the suspension so it's like a 79 or 80 wtih the sway bars? That geometry seems to respond passibly to lowering.
Warning: rant drivel

For me lowering is an unwise maneuver. I see no reason to make the car lower so it bottoms and scrapes on uneven roads and driveways. I'm not up for motocrossing my car, so I'm not worrying about sidwards slides with less roll or driving the car unsafely on public roads. I just like a good riding car which is easy for an old guy like me to get into and out of, and which matches the bumper heights of (at least some) other cars so the damage from small collisions is prevented. ...Maybe the rubber front is so ugly that damage to the nose doesnt harm the looks....

Scot
understood but it looks so much better at the per Nader change

I think the chrome conversion does much more for the look of the car than the lowering. If I had a '75 I'd change it to a late model setup with the sway bars 4 sure.

sorry to disagree but painted bumber is better looking then chrome setup

Depends on the age and agility of the users. I have enough trouble getting in and out of the car as is if I lowered it I think I'd need assistance getting out of the car.

Go the full two inches to chrome bumper height (13.5 to 14", centre wheel to bottom of chrome strip) and get rid of the rear antisway bar! Does more harm than good at that height.

Make sure, that you've got at least 2.25 inches of space between the rear bumpstop and axle pedestal. Should be OK with only one inch, if not it's a 10 minute job to cut a bit off the rubber. About 20mm. Otherwise there is a chance snap over steer when the bump stop contacts prematurely in corners. Or you can remove the bit that MG added to the bases for the rubber bumpers. More work though
You can buy reverse eye springs that make the job easy. Moss, and by all accounts these are better quality than the standard issue ones.
David's got them on his car, scroll about half way down.
http://www.britishv8.org/MG/DavidTetlow.htm

Or You could Unbolt the top leaf from the current set and get a spring maker to reverse the curve, or just use it as a reference to make a reverse eye top leaf. I asked a couple of them at one stage and they said they'd do it for $100, which is just about the minimum charge for anything like that.
If you are not using blocks then you'll probably have to do something about the longer rubber bumper shocker links. Just swap and flip the base plates over, easy.

Lower anything but an LE.

Lloyd, you make all the sense in the world, now let me ask this. what would happen to a daily driver if you just cut out the "new" bump stop area and made it the same as the old way and used lowering springs. I know that geometry on the spring might be challenged when under full depression but would it be a big problem and is there any problem with clearance in other areas under the car if just changing to the old bump stop setup ????

Chris.

Why not lower an LE?? Just wondering.

I lowered an LE and sold it to a good friend..........he took it to Scottsdale and sold it for nice money I heard....don't see him anymore.....

MGs are not off road vehicles. Lose the lift kit!