RARE MGC?

I was just reading the MGC/Vette engine post and the comments about the rare nature of the MGC so I though a new post was in order rather jacking that original one.

First off, is the MGC rare....compared to what? an MGB? yes it's rare compared to an MGB. However, look at the production numbers of most other sports cars of that period...all of a sudden the MGC was made in vast numbers. Even the 4500 or so that came to North America were more than the total production of many other car models.

Using the MGC as a basis for a V8 swap shouldn't be frowned on any more than an MGB. There seems to be more than enought MGCs to go around. And if saving one means it getting a V8...well..... From my point of view, I would rather have the standard MGC front suspension rather than the poor geometry offered by many of the bolt on "trick" MGB setups on offer. If that means using an MGC for a swap....so be it. (besides, like I said earlier...more original engines for Ron that way).

This is a worthy example; http://www.britishv8.org/MG/BobElwin.htm

Lloyd I have to admit that car sure looks nice. Very professional job and I am sure he has lots of fun. I dont think anyone has a "real" problem with the conversion (engine swap) of a MGC.

Yes compared to some cars the MGC was not a low production car.

Personally I like my cars some what original but that is just me, but a lot of the cars that I admire are one offs/hot rods/conversions/replicas/tributes/blah, blah, blah.

So send your tired, unwashed, broken, bent or otherwise unwanted MGC engines to me.

Ron

Lloyd:

It is a matter of opinion.

Yes, Bob's MGC GT with the Ford V8 is a very good looking car and a very nicely done conversion at that. Probably so good it could be the standard for anyone else. Perhaps if you can't finish your car to this standard you should stick to keeping the original engine. It looks like you could put the original engine back in with minimal work. And the additional air supply to the radiator is one of my recomendations for a standard MGC as well.

As far as rarity, the MGC production totalled only 9002 cars. Of those only about 50% were made to US specs. Sure, that may be a lot of cars compared to most Ferarri or Lamborghini models of the same era, but perhaps only half of those MGCs survived to today. Maybe fewer.

Compare to other cars that are similar. How many Triumph TR6s were made? 15,000? 25,000? Over 15,000 Healey 3000s were made in just the Mk III version! Nearly 48,000 Healey 3000s total. Bugeye Sprites: over 48,000. Many times more Spridgets. The MGB: over 500,000 and 80% of those were to US specs!

Of the US spec MGCs only 668 roadsters were made for 1968. Seems too few to sacrifice for a hot rod, in my opinion. I salvaged a nearly rust-free '68 GT shell from a wrecking yard many years ago. Intended to build a Sebring replica, I still wonder if it deserves to be restored instead. Many people in the old cars consider themselves simply caretakers of these cars for the next generation.

C Ya,
Mark

This is always a narrow walk. More MG TDs were made than all other MGs combined to the date. TDs are considered rare. 30-50K production runs indicate a rare car. There are rarer more rare and rarest. Time line and loss add to the factor. Despite setting the trend for "Pony Cars" leading to Muscle Cars and being one of Fords best all time sellers, I'd wager a 64.5 4 lug, 6cyl convertible is now a "very rare" car...due largely to attrition and being boned up to V8 status. Now today where do you find the proper 6 and four lug components to truly "restore" that car? Hard and next to impossible given the rush to trash the "junk" in salvage yards...

Basically it comes down to having a respect for the car and for what and when it was made. In a more rare consideration it is saving and keeping a car original so others can see and appreciate and be helped in also trying to "save" the originality. One even has to consider taking a wrecked body of a "rarest" period correct Cobra and along side taking its frame and doing class act restorations to both parts, in the end what have you? 2 authentically restored Cobras from the one? Or one real Cobra and one clone? Or two bastards for the sake of the $. I offer any conclusion and more maybe correct.
Regardless of the production and by most standards MGCs with only 3 years of lack luster production and sales, meet the criteria to being considered rare. Thanks to a handful or clubs and parts sources, a VERY SMALL handful at that, MGCs are capable of being closely restored to OEM standards and still what parts aren't available are most reproduceable on a one on one need. Not all but most.

Would one consider "popping" in a Chebby big block into an E type? Only if it was a 2+2 I'd offer. No doubt its been done, but the cars which remain are now mostly in the hands of purists who clearly see the intrinsic and real value of keeping it OEM. I would say the single year production of the TR 5/250 likewise keeps them OEM as does the Surrey Top TR4s. I don't know when of if the C will ever outgrow its legend of being a poor substitute for the Healey but I think so. I happen to own a DeTomaso Mangusta...the REAL one with a small block Ford....401 total production with estimates of less than 300 extant and probably closer to 200. I own also an Intermeccanica Omega total production less than 45. I consider them both in the less rare to very rare catagories and so rare in fact they suffer to "unknowness"....but I would NEVER alter either...due to their "rareness". 99% of those who saw either would never question a SB Chebby, but it just isn't right. Willys Jeepsters are probably in the same "rare" catagory as MGCs and sell for about the same price. Happens to be a milestone car with Lowe design but it can't break thru even though its 15 years older, the last of the Cabriolets made in the US and a staunch and sturdy albeit dated engine. Still they are being hacked and chopped and re chassised and engined today which is bound to up their value one day in as stock condition.

I often recall the local MoPar club meet where the guy showed up with his Barricuda and Big Block Chebby....a lotta bling, a lot of effort, absolutely the wrong crowd to parade it "around"...He was as welcome as Rush Limbaugh to a Freedom of Choice ralley.

Bottom line it IS your car and you obviously may do whatever you want to it. Those who love all cars, history, their uniqueness, peculiar natures, refined and unrefined qualities, tend to love them as they were originally designed. IMHO and FWIW.

One last note, I am not really in need of motors, I would rather see it in your car than in my shed. But if you just have no place for it......(just kidding)

Ron

Lloyd
Here is another way of thinking besides the keep it original and modify with big block or whatever. The third is change it like you would have if it were new or a couple years old and better technology became available. Example: with my 69C I added heavier sway bars front and rear, bigger tires with mini lite knock offs, larger oil cooler, after market console, thicker interior insulation, adapt the head to no lead, stronger shocks up front, Yet mostly it looked original. It just handled like a BMW instead a marshmellow.
FWIW.
Safety Fast.
Jim
PS I sold it to buy a 58 MG Magnette and have already gone to work on it's slight modifications. MGB engine(PO), Disc Brakes front. B brakes rear, Potential super charger in the works, (-: Have fun with it and enjoy the ride

I like it.

I like it, I wouldn't think it devalues that car.

Just my two cents here, but the numbers do indicate that the car is rare. Only 4500 some odd cars out of 9000 made it to the States. How many FIat 124s, Datsuns 240, 260 etc, BMW 2002s, 300 series and even Alfas made it to the States? How many E types were sent to the States between 1962 and its demise? Many many more than 4500 some. I have one of three Audi 100 Coupe S in the country,even though it is rare, 36,000 were made between 1971 and 1976, only a handful remain. Go to your local Brirish parts dealer and ask him or her how many MGCs they have seen in the last yeat. Try buying parts for it local ( other than those parts that are interchangable). No indeed the car is rare. And as time goes on, the cars will become rarer as others chop them stuffing V8s, V6s and what ever else into them. I have no problem with hot rodding, but it leaves one less original car to be had. .

One of the reasons the car is rare is that the production of the car was only three years at best, late 1967, 1968 abd 1969. Yes there may be some models titled as 1970, but those are left over 1969s. Why was the C dropped? Well I think we all know the history on that. Leyland favored Truimph. How many Gt6s and TR 4, 5 and 6s are out there? Many more that 4500. As a matter of fact many out there have forgotten the C even existed. I get asked all the time, where I got my hood and what do I have stuffed under it. There is no doubt the car is rare.

They aren't rare by many definitions, but they are scarce enough, IMHO, that it is a shame when they get buggered about with. But of course every one has the right to bugger up....er modify/restore their own property as they please.

Some people are strict purists, some relativists, and some don't care at all about originality. The way of the world.

Maybe it's a moot point - but defining "rare" and "desirable" is diificult and depends on individual viewpoints and experiences. Maybe its a combination of the two factors plus value in the market place which can lead one to conclude that an item is "collectible". Many cars are "rare" precisely because of their lack of desirability!
As MGC values are only similar to equivalent-condition MGB's, I tend to think that the MGC (and the MGB GT V8) are viewed as a Factory hotrodded versions of the MGB rather than unique designs in their own right. Both variants failed in the marketplace for their own reasons and never achieved any kind of unique design status - compared with the E-type Jaguar for example. This is often the result for Factory variants - the "original" is usually the most sought-after. Yet "Costello" MGB conversions are definitely collectible!
I remember when the Sunbeam Tiger was announced and the instant cult status it gained compared with the Sunbeam Alpine basis. Why was this when the MGC and MGB GT V8 which followed the MGB so visibly went nowhere? Perhaps it was the level of performance gain combined with using a similar power-train to the AC Cobra of the time which made it a very desirable Cobra substitute? Or the short production run before being purchased by Chrysler? Maybe MG/British Leyland were too conservative and just didn't up the performance enough to stir peoples interest?
Each to his/her own of course but what is more important to me in a sports car is the driving experience - compared with maintaining originality. Removing 200lbs from the nose of an MGC and doubling the power and torque produces a wonderful classic handling blend from the stiff GT bodyshell, good suspension geometry, braking and "pointability". My stock MGC 6-cylinder roadster is also fun but responds much better to carrying speed through turns rather than trying to divert it from its chosen path!
I wouldn't advise owners to cut up MGC's needlessly but believe there are still plenty of cars available for every need - whether original or improved.

You are right Bill - although the problem with a car like the MGC, which is already nose-heavy, by further stiffening the front roll resistance is of terminal understeer. I expect that once they arrived at the spring rate and wheel size they were going to use, that they found that it understeered already and that a bigger bar only made it worse! By then it was too late to change the engine weight and/or placement. But, with 200lbs less engine weight, a 7/8" bar, 195 section tires, about 1 degree negative camber and a quick-rack, it turns in like a champion!