Welding class

I've been posting my trials and tribulations on the OT forum, but haven't gotten much response. So, I thought I'd try here.

To call my instructor a bad instructor would be an insult to all the bad instrutors out there. It's been mostly, here's the MIG welder, have at it. It's an adult ed. class that is advertised as a "learn to weld" class. From what I can gather, it is more geared to people that already know how to weld and want to build projects but don't have the equipment.

I do plan on doing a lot of reading and have gotten some tips on what look to be good web sites. What I need right now is some suggestions for a project to build using metal about the thickness of an MG fender. I want to learn how to fix the rust in the GT. I've looked at some web sites and in a couple of welding books, but all the projects seem to be heavy metal, pun intended. Was going to try some body shops for bent fenders, I could cut and stitch back together, but other than that I at a loss.

Thanks

http://www.mig-welding.co.uk/

I think that you are on the right track. I was self-taught with oxy-acetelyne and then with the MIG. I got old scrap panels, cut them up and welded them together for practice. Your metal must be clean- use a sanding disc on an angle grinder, rust and paint will not result in a good weld. The hardest thing is setting the power and wire speed. When you have them right the sound really will be like frying bacon! If you burn a hole, move on and come back to fill the hole later when it is a bit cooler.

Use a mask or helmet- or you WILL damage your eyes!

Keep on practising and you will get there. Thinner metal is harder to weld as it burns through if you are not careful, hence the projects you have seen are heavier metal.

If the site above has posted, then it will help you. It is nothing to do with me- but it includes a Rochdale Olympic, like mine!!

Put your gloves and helmet on and away you go!

Rod

Sorry your class instructor sucks Dave.

Just understanding what is physically happening when you are welding goes a long way towards being able to see what is going wrong and fixing it by adjusting the current, the wire feed, the gas, etc.

I perfectly understand your concerns on your tech school dilema, I've ran into more than once, even as a assistant to the main instructor, alot of them are just there for the money, anbd you're right, shop classes often time come down people just doing thier personal projects there. Rod gave sme solid advice, that is pretty much the way I learned to, I just kept doing it until I got good at it.

I'm about to start some self-taught mig welding efforts myself. I figure I'll do just what you suggested: get some old fender scraps and have at it.

At worse, I'll wind up with some modern art metal sculptures.

Dave, there's a good reason that the first projects are "heavy metal", it's much easier to work with heavier material and the beginner doesn't seem to get as frustrated. It will teach you to use the basic tools, then when you have the "feel" of the process you can start refining your technique and move on to the thinner stuff. What you choose for a project depends on what metal fabrication equipment you have as well, you're working with sheet metal and you'll need to practice plug welds as well as butt welds, so some bending will be required, the better you can form the parts the easier the project will be. Think of items you could use around the shop, tool trays, etc that you can design and build.
One thing you will need is a good surface to weld on that's not flamable and won't "pop" with the heat like a concrete floor or block. Something that you can support your work with, clamp it to as necessary to hold alignments. Some 1" angle iron formed into a "V" shape works pretty well, you can clamp it in your vise and clamp smaller pieces nearer the bottom of the legs and the larger pieces further out. If you do "mess up" and weld to it, a bit of grinding and you're ready to go again, no harm done.
It just takes practice, lots of that. Have fun.

There are many Internet sites with good welding tips and information. It's a pity the instructor isn't more helpful but if you put in some time with the MIG you will get the hang of it.
I started with scraps of sheet metal, butt welding them together and made some plug welds too. Get an idea how to dial in your MIG controls on scraps. Then get an old fender and practice cutting a section away,clean it up then weld it back together.
It really is a shame the instructor can't help you more.

OK, here is some advice from someone who is self taught and five years into the learning curve.

Do you have a decent welder? If it is blue or red and uses Argon/Co2 mix, you are on the right track.

Here is how to set up the welder: place the welder where you can reach the controls while pointing the gun at the tin. Try the second heat setting if it is a discreete setting. wire speed just off zero if it comes to a full stop.

Now holding the tip about 3/8 of an inch away pull the trigger. Either a hole will appear or the wire will sputter and snap.

Holding the gun steady, reach over and start adjusting the wire. You are looking for a sweetspot where the heat melts the tin and the cold wire feeds in just fast enough to keep the whole mess from falling out the back side. When you get it right, you can just hold the gun inone spot and the wire will feed in and form a stalagtite out the back side. Once you get this set (close will do).

While learning, you are better off with new tin. Dont try to weld the old tin while learning too many variables.

Butt two pieces of tin up tight (some people like a gap, I go tight. You will find that this whole thing is variable based on your style) Now point the gun atthe seam and pull trigger. Do a two second count. Did you make a hole? Shorten the count to one second. You will end up with a dot that penetrates to the backside when it is right. Now move over and do another "tack" on the seam. Repeat until you have tacks all the way down the seam.

I will do a series of 1" runs where I do a tack, as soon as the helmet clears and the tack is still red, I do another tack that overlaps the first one. This gives you the "stack of coins" look that you often see.

Good luck.

Pete

Sorry to hear that Dave. I was lucky and a friend of a friend is a pro-welder and she gave us some TIG classes that translated will into MIG (along with reading a lot of books and websites).

Here's a couple of handy tutorials on the Chrome Czar's website, they're a local Chicago hot rod club. I found them useful:
http://www.chromeczars.com/board/forumdisplay.php?s=916a21a0fbe725cccb261e843c2e8e29&f=5

Hope that helps.

D

welding is very easy if you understand it, all it is is establishing a puddle and moving it where you want it, in place welding is where things get hard, like doing things"in place" under a car

the welding you are going to do on a repair of an MG is going to be plug welding, I have taught people that in 5 minutes in my garage a dozen times, just turn the heat up and wire speed up and its all about timing from there

welding is welding...if you learn to gas weld everything else is easy, possibly a gas welding class would be better to learn

Beware that the new steel that you will get from a body shop will be high strength steel and will be nothing like the MG metal, try to get an old fender from the 70s

If you have a metal shop near you get some scraps, not galvinized it will not weld right and the gas it emits when welding it will kill you, you want 16 gauge or 18 gauge, most repair parts are between those two sizes, the smaller the number the thicker the sheet metal is

good luck, don't make it more complicated than it is and you will be fine

Ive thought about taking such a class but the local site wants hundreds of dollars for class fees and even more for materials so I've passed. Will have to tackle it alone....once I get a source of power (no 20 amp 110 available at present).

what you have sounds like the instructor is there to point you and help with problems...that sounds good.

it's not something like chemistry where you can figure it out reading a book and listening to lectures. So read a book (you can get a pretty good one at Home Depot!) to get an idea, have the guy show you how to set up the machine, what the settings are, and how to adjust for different materials, then start messing up.

build yourself an engine storage stand (not a big "in the air one" for working on an engine, but a rollaround for a spare engine. or a welding table or get some exhaust pipe pieces and learn how to make a neat 360 ° weld all around it. Some pieces of scrap from a local heating and cooling place (real thin stuff, and galvanized...will teach you how to be careful, I'd imagine<G>)

Some practical advice from another beginner (a few months in, have welded a few panels on my car).

1) Get an auto-darkening helmet. You've got to see what you're doing, these things are great.

2) Don't forget to turn the gas on. If your weld looks crappy, the gas isn't on.

3) If your welder is set up for 18-20 gage metal, and you try to plug weld a 20 gage panel to a 14-16 gage rail, you'll get a cold weld, no penetration, and the weld won't hold. Make sure you know what you're dealing with in terms of metal thickness, and do some practice welds on similar metal to make sure you've got the welder dialed in. You've got to get penetration, and on some production welds you can't see the back of the weld to know if you're getting it or not. Thus the practice welds.

4) Make sure the weld metal is clean and shiny, as well as where you're ground clamp is attached. You need good electrical contact at both spots.

5) If you're welding in a patch, say for a rust repair, make sure you cut out all of the rust such that you've got full thickness metal to weld to. If not, you'll blow a lot of holes, and waste your time. Better to weld in a bigger patch.

6) Start to think differently - with a welder you can add metal, replace flanges, fill holes, etc.. Without a welder you can't do any of that. If you're learning to weld you've probably lived your life without a welder, and you've trained your mind to accept what you can't do. Now that you've got a welder, you've got to train your mind to understand what you can do.

7) Forget welding long seams. The simplest technique is to simply put down a bead of weld, pause, move, and put down another bead. Do that for a short bit, say 1/2", and let the metal cool while you weld somewhere else. Welding a seam on thin sheet metal will pour too much heat into the metal, it'll warp and you'll have a mess.

8) Practice lots of plug welds, you'll be doing that a lot working on MG panels.

9) Get lots of different types of clamps. Some big magnets are usefule for holding patches in place while you weld them in. Sheet metal screws are handy to - drill a larger clearance hold in the outer panel, drill a small screw hole in the inner, then screw the outer panel down, and it will snug up, and you'll have a bit of adjustment room with the larger outer hole (which obviously needs to be smaller than the screw head).

10) I took a course similar to yours, only difference was that my instructor was more helpful - but even then it mostly comes down to practice. Take two scrap pieces and plug weld them together. Two more pieces and butt weld them together. Keep doing it until you feel comfortable with the process, and like the penetration you're getting. You can buy sheet steel at Lowes, cut pieces off and practice. A lot of my scrap metal came off the car I'm restoring - rotten fenders and such.

Build yourself a welding table. I got the material from the scrap yard along with a couple of fenders to practice with thin metal.

http://www.lincolnelectric.com/knowledge/articles/content/howto_weldingtable.asp


Setting up the welder & preparing the surface is 90% of the skill.

Dave, what are you expecting from your instructor?

Do you have access to the welding equipment in class?

If so, just start practicing. I'm sure the guy will come over and give you some tips.

Sometimes, people are too timid to just dive in and start, for fear of not doing it right, or for fear of hurting themselves or fear of being ridiculed, or many times all three.

Believe me Dave, EVERYONE starts at the beginning!!! That should be the slogan here. everyone starts at the beginning!

and also, you're gonna fail! everyone fails right off the bat.

But, your teacher DID do the right thing in that - "Here - Here's the welder - Have at it!" - That's EXACTLY what needs to be done!

PRACTICE-PRACTICE-PRACTICE.

If you have never wielded a MIG welder, then you need to just start welding metal together.

YOU DON'T have to do a certain project. You DON'T have to have a finished result. Heck, all you need is some 18 guage, or 22 guage, or 16 guage sheet metal and START WELDING IT TOGETHER.

Do but welds, fill holes, do flanges.

Just cut the metal into strips, and weld it back together. Make little metal boxes, make long strips, drill holes in the metal and fill them back up.

Just start welding. BOOKS HELP - But, if you have a classroom, and a teacher, I'm POSITIVE he'll provide tips.

But, I KNOW how these classes can be. The NEW GUY Always is the butt of the jokes, and it can be difficult. Just have thick skin, and ask intelligent questions.

What do look at thru the mask, how do I hold the wand, which direction do I weld, how hot, how fast?

All of this just takes lots of practice. NO ONE will be able to say . . . "Here, do this, and this, and that, and more of this, and voila!!! You're a welder. THAT'S NOT GONNA HAPPEN!!!

Keep at it - Books for reference - BUT TAKE ADVANTAGE OF THIS CLASS! It probably has some decent equipment, and someone there to tell you what you did wrong. THAT'S VALUABLE - Believe it or not.
The teacher will be able to look at the metal and say, not enough heat, moved too fast, too much heat, etc. TAKE ADVANTAGE of it, and go out and weld some sh-- together man!!

Have Fun!

B

I'm a believer in the statement that "Practice does not make perfect. PERFECT practice makes perfect." If you aren't welding with the correct method, then all the practice in the world won't make you a better welding. I would either try and find a better instructor or read up a lot and do it on your own. You might also try finding some videos on welding. The welding classes I've taken all had videos to go along with each "project" we had to weld. Basically you watched the video to see how it was done, read up on it in a course book that went along with the video, then did it yourself until you got it right. The videos were very helpful as they showed you exactly what the weld puddle should look like and the technique being used. All the videos were made by Hobart, so you might take a look at their website.

I only use gas with Mig.

Not turning on the bottle has been mentioned.

Has anyone mentioned WIND?

Even the slightest breeze will blow the shielding gas away, especially if you are a novice and maybe holding the the nozzle up from job so you can see.

Also, Mig weld as you do with gas welding.

Run the weld forwards into the weld.

NOT backwards from the weld as in arc welding.

Thanks for all the incurigment(boy I can't spell and too tired to look it up). I do have an auto darkening helmet. I don't know how anyone could weld w/o one. Most everyone in the class is a novice and no poking fun has happened.

To answer some questions/opinions:

No the instructor does not come around and critique anyone.
Yes, I have ask questions like:
What do I do if I burn through? Nothing you can do about it.
How do these welds look? Not too bad, but you're not getting penitration. What do I do about that? Did you leave a gap? No, you never said anything about leaving a gap (butt welds.) Well you need to leave about a 1/32" gap. to myself, well thanks for telling me,a..hole.
I'm getting these little volcanos. What am I doing wrong? Well, I don't know. Hits them with a hammer. Their bubbles. Well what caused that? Could be a lot of things. Dirty metal, but this looks clean. Could be bubbles of gas. How do I prevent that? Well sometimes it just happens.
I either burn thru or get no penitration. I want to learn to weld patch panels on my car. Welding thin metal is really tough. Did you change the settings on the machine? No, didn't know there were setting. Lifting the cover, Well you could try setting it on stitch, or spot. You can adjust stitch to anything up to 3 seconds.
What are these knobs for? One adjusts the wire speed and the other adjusts the amps or in other words heat.

Now, you get the idea? I have just learned more in these few short posts, than I have in 12hrs. of class. Afer struggling for 2 hrs in the last class and asking most of the above questions, he tells me "maybe you should get the metal off this big iceberg of a table. It just suck up heat." Well no shit, pardon the verbage. After that the frustration level went down considerably.

Since his answer to what to do about blow thru, was that I could do anything and someone above implied I could fix it, how do I fix it? And since his answer to "I'm have a real problem with blow thru when I get to the end of the metal pieces, what do I do?" was something like, "Welding thin metal is hard. Isn't it?" Another no shit moment. I've tried sneaking up on it by slowly adding stitches and it seems I still blow through on the very edge. I've tried very short "bursts", in which case I get no penitration. Any suggestions?

Also, it was suggested above that I just do little round circles and end up with a stacked coin look. This is what I have seen on tv. I watch a lot of the Spike tv and speed tv shows. Anything to do with body work, metal fab etc. and this is what I see. When I try this I get a hole. Could someone explain the relationship between wire speed and heat. I do not know when to adjust what to where to when to why and keep getting the deer in the headlights look form Mr. Insturctor. I plan on doing reading, but am pretty busy right now. I thought the class would teach me, but was wrong and don't know "how to practice perfect." I believe this too, btw.

Thanks Steve for the welding table suggestion. And a great big thank you to all the rest of you too. I would be lost without this site. I haven't asked that may questions, but have sure learned a lot of things, reading the forum, library, etc

Dave one more thought. Have a look at the others in the class and find the guys that already can weld but are just there to buid something. Talk to them and watch and ask questions. You may find one or a couple guys that can be very helpful.
Bill

Great advice by Bill, go to the students that are getting it, and buddy up with them. Trust me I feel your frustration I had to quit teaching at my local tech school, in performance engine building and dyno testing, because the chief instructor was such a dumbass, it drove me crazy, most of those kids were not getting much out of the class, they were just instructed to do things without being taught why, a shitty way to teach, I had to get the heck out of there before I put my foot up this guy ass. He was such a bumbling dumbass, we built a circle track V8, for a ex-Nascar cup, then Hooters Cup car, he wanted to take it to a raod course, I told him the this car has circle track oil pan, you can't do right turns with it, he ignored me, blew the damn thing up in two laps, that cost the school well over $20K.

My nephew, wnet to the same exact tech school, and took body and fender, it was a joke too. The instructor would shedule a certian amount of time for each phase, like repair, apint, etc., if a student dodn't get his shot at that phase before the time was up, tough shit. On top of everyhting the instructor manged to miss atleast 1-2 days a week. Finally my nephew got fed up and decided to take a real job at real body shop. I told him you'll learn from those guys, thay know how to make a actual living at this, sure enough less than 5 years in, he is a painter now, and has bright future in front of him, but no thanks to the dumbass at the tech school.

I will tell you though, I had great experience in a tool and die shop class I took, the two instructors were seasoned prefessional actually making a living in this field and teaching night classes. They helped the studnets learn big time, they even change the class structure for each student based on what they needed to learn. I still stay in touch with those guys.

So in closing with instuctors. it is really a roll of the dice. Dave I would confront your instructor privately, let him know you want more instruction than you are getting, you pid for the class, it is his job to deliver. If that doesn't work, go to the head of that department, maybe this guy needs to be shown the door.

bk Wrote:

Hmmm. Friendly red-head with some experience?? What night are those courses and is it too late to sign up? :)

Derek up North Wrote:

If you're burning through, then either:
- you're staying in one spot too long (not likely)
- the metal is too thin for the lowest heat setting (possible, especially if it's rusty metal)
- you've got the current/heat setting too high (most likely)

I'm using a Clarke 130EN mig. For 18-20 gage metal, heat is at the lowest setting, wirespeed at 6 out of 10 (but results are ok anywhere between 4-8).

If you go to the web site that Rod Smith posted in the first response, there are little flash videos of mig welding examples, too cold, just right, too hot. It will give you a sense of what a good weld should look and sound like. That site also explains how to dial in the welder - try out variouis heat/speed settings until you get the results you need.

Most mig welders I've seen (we used Lincoln units in the class I took) use the lowest or maybe next to lowest heat setting for 18-20 gage sheet. Wire speed generally ends up in the middle range. There should be recommendations for starting points for both posted on the machine, on the Clarke & Lincold they were inside the spool door.

The edge of metal sheet is going to melt fast. One answer is to not put a weld there - weld on the face of the sheet. For plug welds, for instance, focus the weld on the face (middle) of the hole, when you've got a good puddle there, move the gun over to the edge - it'll melt quickly into the weld, then move the gun quickly around the periphery of the hole.

If you're trying to weld metal below 18 gage, maybe you're welder just can't handle that. I don't think mine would very well.

If you're blowing holes on butt welds, I don't know what to tell you other than to turn the heat down. If that's as low as it gets, then turn the wire speed down - faster wire speed means the wire is constantly in contact with the weld, and so constantly arcing/heating the weld. Slowing it down will cool the weld a bit. In my experience, I don't get holes on butt welds on clean 18-20 gage metal when I follow the machine recommendations.

Thanks Steve, that's just what I needed. I didn't know the relationship between wire speed and heat and the weld/puddle. I will check out that site soon, but right now it's snowing and Alta is calling. Nothing like skiing fresh Utah powder!

The class is offered again in the spring. So, if worse comes to worse, I can always read up over the summer when there is no snow and take it again.

One thing I have learned. They also offer an auto body and paint class. It's tonight,and if I'm awake, just finished 7x10hr midnights, I plan on going over and checking it out. See if this guy is any better at teaching, then the welding guy. Though I can't figure out how he can be worse.

I was a qualified instructor in my rate in the Navy. Taught reservists on the weekend. If a stage frightened 20 yr old, can get up in front of 35 men, and teach them about what they have been doing for almost longer than he is old. You would think this guy could teach me how to weld. He will to, even if it kills him.

Like others I learned to weld by buying (and reading) a book and just doing it. MIG (with gas) is fairly easy on the the thicker stuff. I started TIG welding a couple years ago and love it. The main negative with TIG is that it is slower than the other methods and for me that is not an issue because I am doing this for fun not work. The quality of the welds is worth it for me. I used TIG when I plug welded my floor in my MGB last Fall and was really happy with the results. Have fun!