MG MGB and MGB GT Tech Talk
I have to rebuild the engine for the BGT. I don't really want to nit-pick each little part I need. Is there a one stop complete engine rebuild kit I can get somewhere? I need all rings, bearings, seals, gaskets in one lump. Thanks, Paul
I thought Bob at BritTek was the only option, although I'd bet the B-Hive would assemble a kit as well. Kits are something that I understand Moss is working on however.
I think Hap at Acme is now also offering a kit of quality engine rebuild parts. That's where I'm going to go when the time comes to rebuild by Sprite Engine. FWIW I used Brit-tek when I rebuilt my B engine and he was good to work with.
http://www.acmespeedshop.com/pricing.html
Bob at Brit-Tek is you answer. While we could go though the lsit of parts and critique each one, overall, I think he gives great value for the money if you are just putting a stock driver back on the road. One of his kits and a decent machne shop should see you on the road for under 2k.
Pete
Try Hap, I am pleased with what I received from him and he has knowledge if you need it!
If in fact Hap is offering a kit, I have no doubt it will be high quality bits aimed at the performance street crowd. Certainly could not hurt the rest of us who worry about marginal quality on some components and have no way to validate each part.
Peter
Paul, This situaction pissed me off for so long, I stepped in and did what I felt no one else in the industry would or could do, put together a quality engine rebuild kit with the correct quality parts at minimum atleast equal to what the factory put in your engine to begin with. Most of the customers are only going to do this once, ok, maybe 2-3 times in their lifes max, for them to know the needed quality parts would be impossible, since it's something they don't do very often, then you got 95% of the parts guys, parts people are nice, most however are not engine builders or even mechanics, they are counter parts guys, they know parts numbers, model year, but not jack shit about what part is crap and what part is good, have not met a part guy yet, who wouldn't tell the parts he offered were not good enough, like he would ever know to start with. I work with this stuff every day, I see most all of it, and what I have not saw, I buy and check out for you, like the other day I bought a Moss harmonic balancer to check out the quality of it, so if anyone ever wanted one, atleast I know what the hell I was talking about, most parts guys don't know the difference between tri metal rod and main bearings and bi metal rod and main bearing (but your engine does), the factory never used bi metal in your engine , why should you, because thats all "parts guy" has. Most part guys wouldn't know that a Payen gasket set is worth more money because it fits better, and for example with a MG 1275 is the only bottom end gasket set that include the rubber pan rails, the cheap sets give you garbage cork pan rails, but "parts guy" wouldn't know that because he never built a 1275 with cork pan rail gaskets and had it leak on him.
There's is no such thing as "one stop shopping" for a quailty engine rebuild kit, no one place (not none fo our vendors) has it all in one place. What i do is I get you a custom (to your needs) rebuild kit only comprised of the best quality parts based on the experience of a veteran engine builder who uses this stuff everyday. I get dealer discounts from all these vendors, so the price I sell to you, is the same price you could buy it from them for, I'm taking care of all the leg work and knowldege needed for getting the kit together from all the different sources and making sure you get the right quality for your rebuild. Glenn's kit above came form 3 different sources.
Bottom line all lifter/tappets are not equal, neither are bearing, gaskets, camshafts, valve seals, fastners, and most parts guys would not have a clue how to assemble a quailty kit for you, the only kit offered for our engine outside my offering, is nothing more than a collection of the entry level offerings, many of which I would never, ever use in anything I build EVER!.
I did what other vendors wouldn't and most of them didn't know enough to do, I offer the hobbist a engine rebuild kit based on what I use myself and know to be of good quality. Oh and so you know I often times ask by vendors to test their products, so they must think I'm a good judge of them as well, bottom line, I'll never, ever side with vendors, you are always my priority, and getting you the quailty engine rebuild parts. A vendor I consider a friend the other day told me his lifters were Rockwell C 54, and bragged on that like it was good, thats still 3 points softer than I would ever use, I like that guy and buy alot of stuff form him, but his lifters are not one of the items I buy form him.
I challenge anyone in the industry to do what I do (quialty rebuild kits) for the prices I do it for you all, and backed with the experience I have with these items. Oh and my kits are never generic, they are custom for your project. I assist thru out the build, often time I even talk with their local machine shop guys, and aid the customer thru the assembly, and advice and tech help is free.
Call me Paul, I'll take care of you.
.
Glenn, thank you for the kind words, and your business.
I pieced together my engine with parts from Moss, British Parts Northwest and the B Hive. I definitely saved some money and I found that I didn't need all the parts at once. I think I ended up spending a little under $1,500 on parts, but that included clutch parts and odds and ends for an engine bay resto. How cheap am I? I used good used .40 over pistons that I bought from Carl French's brother.
Although I'd like to sell you the parts, looking at the boxes from Hap I see nothing but good stuff; AE, County, Payen, and some stuff I can't make out. APT is a company I have never personally used, but they have a good rep.
Thanks guys! I will know my engine code, condition and what I want to do next week.
Don't use the red rear main seal. It's too small on the inner diameter. Get a federal mogul one. You chould be able to find the part # in a search.
I only wish I knew that Hap was selling kits when I began to source parts for my rebuild at the beginning of the summer. God it would have made life easier and I wouldn't have had to waste so much time reinventing the wheel in terms of finding quality parts. Thanks for stepping up to the plate on this one Hap. Well done! (I'll be giving you a bell next rebuild).
Holy crap, Hap - you could sell snow to penguins!
I hope you are keen and able for the extra business such a good post will surely generate....when the time comes for a rebuild here, I'll certainly be givin' you a call - even though shipping to NZ is generally ruinous.
Cheers!
Note: If you're a purist, don;t bother reading this
Unless you're a stickler for originality, doing a complete rebuild on a B motor is not a good investment. If your engine needs a complete rebuild, you can do a V6 conversion for less money, and then you have a real increase in reliability and performance.
I love MGB's, but they are DOGs compared to even a cheapy rice burner on the road today. The only 2 cost effective answers to this situation I have found are to retrofit fuel injection (see my journal pages here, for example) or change out the motor for a GM V6.
I've gone both routes and like both results. The V6 has more pep, but it is more expensive and more work to do than retrofit EFI.
On the other hand, if you've kind to your B and do a 'freshen' before it is too far worn down, you can often "freshen" the motor with rings, rod and main bearings, cam sprockets and chain, and avoid all machine charges and the cost of new pistons, too. You wind up with a quite good result usually. You can do all this with the motor in place, so it's just a weekend of mechanicing and cleaning up afterwards.
I don't believe your "a v6 is cheaper" dance. <Grin>
A junkyard engine Chevy S10 lump will cost about the same to rebuild to the same level as a B engine. Then you have the adapter stuff, new trans, and other stuff. A V6 conversion is a 6-7 thousand dollar job done well and not trying to fab your own parts (which most of us cannot do anyway).
"""I assist thru out the build, often time I even talk with their local machine shop guys, and aid the customer thru the assembly, and advice and tech help is free.
""""
excellent
rather i would say the technical assistance is part of the package ,,in your interest , you should only provide a limited amount of time *free* some of us [like myself] would pester you to death , over a goodly amount of advice , a nominal fee would be appropriate. [but go ahead and give me all mine free.. hahahaah]
i would want a good list of all the basic tools required , and procedures.
procedures referencing a shop manual are good , you know ,, like Remove head IAW[ in accordance with] Haynes section # para # or Shop Manual such and such , passage/ para..
then put in emphasis on the important parts that a fool would not know or notice
in my past life i had occasion to write procedure. it was stuff i knew well .[ though i did have to look at references for specs]
i was required to write procedures for the behavior , i wrote 2 .. one for someone *in the trade* it was one page
one for some one *not in the trade* it was 42 pages but if any idiot followed those procedures the product would be adequate.
on engine building i would need the latter
does such a set of instruction exist ?
if so i want one to peruse.. since my power plant has 110000 miles untouched and by jeffs consideration is due to Grenade ... lots types of grenades , some throw fragments , some smoke , some just a loud noise . some just sit there and do nothing .. i suppose engines are similar.. heh
if not
will you consider accumulating you wisdom in such a manner.
tool list
parts list
procedures for the complete fool
Hap Waldrop's
Acme Speed Shop
manual for engine rebuild
soon to be on every ones wish list to Santa
best regards
michael
Scot,
While I agree with your thinking on rebuilding a tired MG engine, Some of us live in states that will not allow you to do a swap as you suggest on the later models (smog requirement) the answer is quality parts are required so you don't have to repeat or repair after a few miles.
I would gladly pay for quality parts from someone who stands behind those parts and I can restst assured that Hap is that kind of person.
While I would love to have more power, California will restrict or not allow me to do this on my daily driver.
Glenn
And Thanks Hap for your help chosing the "Right" parts
Mac,
I believe you are not making true comparisons, and your cost statements are not in keeping with my experiences of the last 3 years. I wouldn't recommend buying one one dead motor to replace another dead motor. That makes no sense to me. Spending money wisely makes a lot of sense to me. Choosing wisely and buying wisely makes a lot of sense to me.
First off, most used RWD GmV6's do not need rebuilding. Unlike a B motor, the RWD fuel injected V6's are usually good for 200K miles or more. They do not a priori need a rebuild when bought used. These GM motors with 100K miles on them are in much better shape than most B motor with 50K miles. There are lots of used V6's around in great condition. Most of the vehicles are wrecksm or cases where the rest of the car died first (rust, shabby interiors, etc.). Even a suitable whole running car with the right drivetrain isnt expensive.
Second, the cost is much lower than you allude to. The cost of the conversion parts-to have it a 'bolt right in' job - is nowhere near $7000. It's less than $1500. The cost of the motor and transmission is not that much, either. Some examples of my own experience are:
1. Yesterday I bought a slightly used crate engine- driven 2500 miles before the car
was totalled- for $400. It still has the paint and goodwrench sticker on it.
2. I bought a complete 91 S10 with 2.8 for $250. Ran fine. No rebuilding.
Used the engine, EFI, bellhousing clutch and actuator.
Swapped the s10 trans +$50 for a V6 T5 tranny.
Sold rest of vehicle for scrap Took less than a day to remove engine, etc.
3. Bought a complete good running 3.1 engine, transmission, ecu, etc for $700.
Sold the rest of the car for scrap. Got about $175.
I have come to believe the options for having a great running B are plentiful and not that difficult or expensive. It all depends on what you have, what you want, and what you'll actually spend money on. IMHO, the following are the choices for the situation of a Car with dead motor:
Do a complete rebuild of the B motor more than $1500
Find a good replacement B motor requiring nothing for under $1000
Buy a V6 drivetrain + parts for less than $2500
Engine removal and installation are separate considerations. Basically, it's
DIY or have someone else do it in either case.
The pic Glenn published showes excelent quality parts that would be ok for a good rebuilt to meet works specs again. For more detailed pics of some of the items used, try this page: http://www.octarineservices.co.uk
Chris Betson is one of those MG nuts in GB who also knows what he is talking about and dealing with.
BTW, there are interesting rebuilt guides with detaild pics on his page, just have a look.
If you choose the rebuild route, Hap has a great reputation.
Yep, if this is all about power, with a MGB we already chosen the wrong car :) For the life of me I can't that excited about the V6/V8 stuff, I guess If I lived in the flat lands I would more, but a nicely done MGB 4 banger can and does (in the right hands) perform well on the twisty roads, more power (as in a V6/V8) wouldn't be the hot ticket for the roads I run, heck 4th gear is not even needed much. Now just so you know, I dig looking at what the V6/V8 guys are doing , but it's not what I do, and I doubt, I ever go that route. I'm a old school builder, "here's the mouse trap sir, make it better" so in nutshell hopping up the orignal power plant and making it better is what floats my boat, each to thier own ans long as it makes you happy.
As for helping folks with tech advice, heck I'm already doing that I answer about two dozen tech phone calls, emails and forum PMs everyday, so thats nothing new to me. The engine rebuild kits deal just kinda happen, I talked about it for awhile, until someone called my bluff, so I did one for them, and decided why not offer it to public, since then, about 6 months or so, I guess I done a dozen or so kits. At first I imagined that I would just come up with a kit, post it on my website, but i quickly realized, people want different things, so I just talk with the customer, get a feeling for what they want, and customize the kit to their needs. Recently I've been working with a fella who order a new Westfield 11 kit (Lotus 11 copy) he wanted alot of very high end stuff, Rimflow valves, and alot of high buck goodies, I helped out with his machine shop, very nice and capable shop, that I bascily share a few A series machining detials with, and I'm sure I'll be helping the customer with tech when it comes assembly time. Another recent job was a forum poster who had already order his engine parts and came to me asking my opinion on what he had got and if it was the right parts to use, some of what he had was more than acceptable, and other stuff in my opinion was less than desireable, so he return a few parts and I got him replacment parts for some of the items he returned, basicly he is building a stock 1275 engine, so the kits run the gammit for more or less good stock parts to perforamcne stuff. I'm pretty good at getting folks the best bang for the buck, because thats the way I think for my own stuff, for example I can't force myself to pay $44 for Rimflow intake valve, but I know where I can get a really nice gas flowed intake valve for under 20 bucks, I used about all this stuff at one time or another, so I know where to spend your money wisely. As fo the tech questions, I just like helping folks with tech, it is something I always done, sure it's nicer when folks are buying from you, but I never mind helping with advice, it's part of who I am.
[quote=scotabbott]
Mac,
I believe you are not making true comparisons, and your cost statements are not in keeping with my experiences of the last 3 years. I wouldn't recommend buying one one dead motor to replace another dead motor. That makes no sense to me. Spending money wisely makes a lot of sense to me. Choosing wisely and buying wisely makes a lot of sense to me.>>
Anyone who can use a priori correctly in a sentance discussing car engines certainly demands my respect!
However, my experience with used, aka "junkyard," GM motors has not been good and I'd have to go with a rebuild or crate motor were I to tackle such a project.
My $7 Big comment was based on what I was told by a prominent member of the V6/V8 forum was a good budget figure for such a swap. At the time I was also looking at a Ford 2 liter Zetech (which I still think would have been a wonderful conversion) and the cost for that would have been in the same vicinity. Unfortunately that neighborhood is too rich for my blood (so RSS is getting the GT upon which to inflict said conversion).
Don't know how this got into the old engine swap debate. All I know is that if I wanted a Chevy I'd buy a Camaro with the engine in it already.;)
I may be biased since I already have a V8 car that will rock your world. The MGB may not have the accelleration but the cornering is like my adolecent go-cart days. I consider myself very fortunate to have both. The MGB isn't much fun at the drags while the TR8 (in it's present form) is a bonafide muscle car. Both are fun at track days but I actually prefer the MGB there. Out laping modern stuff like a Mustang GT or early Miata with an Antique 1800cc 4cyl..............Now that there is fun, I don't care who you are!:devil:
Don't mean to derail the thread but my question follows suit with the original question I think.
I'm contemplating a restore project on my family's '75 MGB. The poor thing hasn't been run in well over 15+ yrs and would obviously require a significant amount of work. I haven't tried to turn it over, touch it, etc. just yet. Am I completely insane for thinking that a good majority of the engine would be salvageable? Would it most likely be best just to scrap the whole engine and start new?
I'll try to post some pics in the coming days...
Jim X2,
my GTV8 is fun to drive but it does not have that famous feeling the Rodster provides. It is a 1868ccm 18V with 292° high lift cam, ralley/race head, flat top pistons, lightened rods, crank, fly, verneer cam gear, large valves, lightened followers and pushrods, HIF 6 carbs, Special Tuning Dep. 43D dizzy, Peco big bore system... all items ballanced and wighted within tolerances of 1/10 of a Gramm... and it is real fun to drive this small Roadster on twisty roads since.
When I did the rebuilt, I also looked for quality parts and took time putting things together, checking, mesuring, taking it apart again, do some new calculations, rework details...thats what is time consuming and expensive when not done by yourself.
There was only one mistake I made: not buying a Piper billet cam first but trying one of the cheaper Kent cams.
The results? Amazing! We did a dyno run after changing the cam for the Piper one with a peak of 123 rwhp at 5750 rpm. A road test with works hardtop was not continued at 200 KpH, as the tyres (175/80-T14) were limited to 190 KpH, but there was still some potential left.
Driving to the Nürburgring, just 115 Miles from my home, you allways meet the folks with their MX5, BMW Z3, Alfa Spyder, TR 6PI, who are very astonished when outperformed by a 35 year old MGB.
I think the kit Hap can provide is good value on the safe side and well spent money for fun in the future. Think of all the work, money and time put into a restauration. Why dont spent money into a high quality engine rebuilt (where it belongs) but into chrome wires or powerfull car cd stereo and speakers?
Don't chuck the engine; I have brought back those with pistons so stuck they had to be beat out with a 2x4 on the rod and a 5 lb hammer.
Ralph has impressive numbers. How much did it cost to make the engine that way?
Hehe, all this debate makes me want to rebuild the engine in my 71 MGB. This is going to be my winter project. All I want is my engine to be stock and run another 38 years. Some curves you just cant take at 80mph.................mikek
To make a sollidly rebuilt B engine scream just add a supercharger to the mix. It's a bolt on unit that gives you the impression that you just added 2 cylinders. Hap's approach to testing and matching parts to customers' needs is a rare and valuable asset. RAY
Scot,
the costs for parts and machine shop work was a little more than 6000 Euros on that engine but it would have been near the 10000 Euro region when I would had to pay a mechanik for a week of blueprinting.
The costs must be seen in relation to the local situation for registrating cars in here. You can do a Rover V8 swap to a B and it will be legalized as it is a copy of a car that was poduced more than 30 years ago. But V6, FI, Turbos, Rotarys and DOHC conversions will only be allowed on a special permit after a very expensive testing procedure. Otherwise you will not find an insurance company to give you a documet you can have your car registrated with.
An other fact are road taxes. 'Original' historic cars of 30 years or older are taxed with a flat rate of 193 Euros a year, there are no emission limits claimed to this 'historic' cars and you are allowed to use them all times. Younger or non original old cars have to pay about 45 Euros for every 100cc of engine capacity instead. Just calculate that for a popular V6 swap...:eyepop:
With the Rover V8 swap it is also a different situation in here, concerning costs. Rover V8 engines and suitable LT77 or R380 gearboxes are rear birds in heare. They are expensive, even the ones that need a rebuilt and then you will have to pay high prices for the rare spares, making it more easy to pick a rusty GTV8 in England and do a good rebuilt on the shell.
When doing a rebuilt on an engine with a kit as offered by Hap, it will not shoot the costs over the limits to select HC pistons, a somewhat better cam, competition oil pump and uprated presure valve etc. with the kit.
Having the head ported and and the valve seats cut right will cost additional money but seems well spent.
The original question came from Paul for the engine of his GT.
I think he should discuss it with Hap, may be a big bore 1948cc block is the way to go with the GT concerning the enlarged torque, then a 270°cam and a GCR of 9.75:1 (giving an ECR below 8:1 with a high lift 270) and a balanced crank and lightened fly and the car will be fun to drive and will fly compared to it's stock counterpart without investing a fortune in forged pistons, roller rockers, Weber carb wild headers and all that stuff.
Ralph
Raplph
Thank you for the information. It puts the situation in perspective. What you paid for the motor work alone would buy a complete very very nice MGB, or an MGBV6 or 8 in good condition here in the States.
I was speaking from the Americentric viewpoint (sorry for the lack of wider perspective), and I feel a lot of people read the forum from that viewpoint. I wanted to point out that there are more alternatives than just rebuilding or 'hopping up' a B motor.
Here in the States it's just not a wise investment for someone who wants their B to run great to make the B motor like you describe for 'daily driver' use. It is simply easy to spend more on just the motor than the value of the whole car. The result, while beautiful, does not perform as well as the V6 conversions, and it is more expensive to do. It pollutes the environment more, will not last as long, and has lower reliability than a V6 conversion done to the same expense level.
Across the pond I'd think people would try to import used rover motors etc, since there are a lot of them here in junk yards.
This is something that bugs me about the old car hobby and I've posted about it before. I hear it all the time. "I don't want to spend that much cause the car isn't worth it." However, people seem perfectly content to lose $10,000 over a few years on the everyday transportation investment sitting in the driveway. This is suposed to be hobby, not a used car bussiness. Sure, I would lose money selling my MGB. But I built it the way I wanted it.
On the subject of values, I also would pay less for a car with some adapted in engine over one with an OE drivetrain. Actually, one of the conversions other than a Rover V8 wouldn't interest me at all. The Rover was once offered by the factory which gives it some degree of authenticity. Sticking in a Chevy or some other engine creates a streetrod not an MGB. But that's only my opinion. And I'm certainly not a purist. ;) Judging from the lack of interest in some of the conversions that turn up on ebay, I must not be the only one that feels this way.
Hey Scot, let me know where those cheap Rovers are. Seriously. All the ones I've run across they want 500 bucks and up for a core motor. Shipping an engine overseas would have to cost a fortune too.
For sure all the posts in a forum are one's opinion. I do realize that many folks want something regardless of cost, and I also realize that a lot of people sort of kid themselves into spending unwisely-especially when it comes to cars. Many haven't considered the alternatives in the routes available. It was the purpose of my posts to bring out those ideas and describe some alternatives in a fair way.
I must also admit have it both ways.(actually all three). I have stock B's, a BGT, a fuel injected stock B and a B V6. I dont have a BV8, but I had the parts to do one. (I abandoned that project when I found out its true cost-both initial and long-term.)
These cars are like ice cream- they are all good and there are plenty of flavors to be had-not just one. Some may favor strawberry or whatever, but it's all good. You pays your money and takes your choice.
Hap,
I have a few questions for you. In your knowledge of building engines, which engine would be better to use for performance. An older high compression 5 main engine or a later 18V, what are some of the pros and cons on both engines using the same componets.
