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Feb 16, 2009 05:55:19
jrhickmn

i have the bentley, the haynes, and several other miscellaneous books, i even have a clausager, but what resource volume--if there is one--do "they" use for concours judging? i have no hope or desire for a concours restoration, but occasionally i will find a bracket or tie down hanging loose and wonder where it is supposed to attach. when i take bolts loose, i try to put them back on as i found them. i learned this stuff from a guy who had Model A Fords and he had a book that described from which direction the factory inserted the cotter pins so that he could do it factory, EXACTLY. at the time i made fun of him, now i am jealous. is there such an MG reference?

Feb 16, 2009 06:00:36
bobmunch

There are a few concours judges on this forum and they should be chiming in shortly. You could also direct your question to groups like NAMGBR or AMGBA whose members regularly judge and are judged. To some extent, it would even depend on the venue where your car is judged (one man's concours might be another's car show).





Feb 16, 2009 07:01:18
cfrench

If you are looking to use NAMGBR 'standards' I would contact Paul Hanley as he is the current Concours coordinator for them. The standards are kind of loose however. Clausagers is perhaps the best reference but it has flaws as a text. There a few very original cars out there that are good references. I remember Pete Cosimedes (sp?) car is very original (including the paint color unfortunately :) )

Feb 16, 2009 07:05:14
jrhickmn

well, its not so much that i want a perfect car, but i know that parts of mine have been taken apart and put back together so many times over the last 30 plus years, i am wondering if there is some reference volume (i was hoping for pdf...cheaper and easier) by which i could get some idea of where things hooked together originally. i'll look for paul, thanks carl for the suggestion.

Feb 16, 2009 07:11:19
AzMarc

I do NOT believe that there is a book out there with Concours standards.....If so, I'd buy it in a heartbeat.

Feb 16, 2009 07:21:13
cfrench

Marc, if you are not familiar with the Clausagers, you should buy/borrow one. It has a lot of great info on originality. A couple of the early B's shown were over restored and it shows with some paint inaccuracies (too shiny).

Feb 16, 2009 08:47:06
Jack Long

I have never seen a book with the kind of detail and I suspect that assembly processes in Abingdon were somewhat less documented than at Ford (like direction in which to insert cotter pins).

Feb 16, 2009 09:46:54
PHB

Not only is it likely the Abingdon processes were less well documented, they were likely different according to who was the fitter that day, what day of the week it was and what time of day.

There is a book on the Jaguar XK8 that describes what happened when the Ford folk met up with the Jaguar assembly line folk. OK so it isn't quite MG, but Jaguar and MG were both pretty much treated alike by the BL management - cash cows to extract money and send it down to be burned in a big pit in Longridge or Cowley.

So the Ford folk come in and they find folk lead loading the XJS bodies to make the doors fit and so on. And they just don't understand it, they haven't done anything like it in their plants in living memory. Then they throw the entire plant out and start from scratch with a zero adjustment program.

I don't see the point of concours for any handbuilt car. If you want a car built perfectly, get one built by robots. MGs were meant to be daily drivers.

Feb 16, 2009 10:08:51
cfrench


""I don't see the point of concours for any handbuilt car. If you want a car built perfectly, get one built by robots. MGs were meant to be daily drivers.""

Yeah, that is why Rolls Royce, Bentley, Packard etc are never in Concours competition cause they are handbuilt and have no standards. I am prepping my 97 Sable for Amelia Island as we speak.

If you think MGs are not meant for Concours then do not ever look at Paul Hanley's or Brooks Amiot's cars

Feb 16, 2009 10:17:59
Rictus

Sounds like it's all pretty arbitrary, then. If there's no stated standard of "correct" Then it's the judge's perception of "correct" and there would be no way to challenge a judge's decision if there are no published standards.

Now, if you'll excuse me I have to hot glue a Mitsubishi EVO wing to my GT :)

Feb 16, 2009 10:25:53
jrhickmn

i guess what i'm saying is that if Paul and Brooks had some sort of reference that i don't have, whether complete or not and absolutely accurate or not, i want to know. i wouldn't expect "cotter pin orientation" but at least most general standards and practices. i came to this curiousity lying on my back last night looking at the starter and noticing the various wires and hoses with the loose securing straps underneath the car and wondering where they were originally attached.

Feb 16, 2009 10:45:02
Derek up North

I know of no such reference.

Feb 16, 2009 10:53:38
jrhickmn

surely not. there has to be some club or organization SOMEWHERE that has some kind of checklist, at least? if not, i don't think the idea of a judged concourse competition is impossible, but it sure is more subjective.

Feb 16, 2009 11:03:57
cfrench

jrhickmn Wrote:

Quote: "
i guess what i'm saying is that if Paul and Brooks had some sort of reference that i don't have, whether complete or not and absolutely accurate or not, i want to know. i wouldn't expect "cotter pin orientation" but at least most general standards and practices. i came to this curiousity lying on my back last night looking at the starter and noticing the various wires and hoses with the loose securing straps underneath the car and wondering where they were originally attached.
"


Uhm, I do not know why I didn't mention it before but.....Clausagers?

Feb 16, 2009 11:07:33
jrhickmn

i have a clausagers and haven't found anything better for the details i'm curious about, i just wondered if somebody had a checklist or something somewhere. not to be greedy, just wondering. i figured to do concourse judging there might be a definative list. maybe not.

Feb 16, 2009 11:13:51
cfrench

I would PM Bart here about some of the things you are looking for. He has done controversial stuff but he has worked real hard to do as close to a 'Bloomington Gold Standard' restoration on his B as possible. He can back up with various forms of documentation. He has it for sale right now due to medical bills.

The car did win 2008 AACA Senior Grand National Champion.

Feb 16, 2009 11:23:18
AzMarc

cfrench Wrote:

Quote: "
Marc, if you are not familiar with the Clausagers, you should buy/borrow one. It has a lot of great info on originality. A couple of the early B's shown were over restored and it shows with some paint inaccuracies (too shiny).
"


Carl,
I have worn out some of the pages of Clausagers but still do not consider it a concours standard publication with the kind of detail I am seeking. Great reference material however.

I have a ton of pics from Pauls, Brooks and a few others but I am looking to get down to an even more precise detail....if one is out there.

Feb 16, 2009 11:36:00
cfrench

I have two 63's in the yard and I would think between teh two of them there would still have to be some originality there. What kind of things do you wish to know? Like original oil cooler hose retaining clips etc?

Feb 16, 2009 12:08:57
Tophie2

LOL Carl

Feb 16, 2009 12:16:01
jrhickmn

oh, its not that i have a specific question in mind right now, i just thought last night that if there was some sort of book or check-list, i could keep a copy in the garage...

Feb 16, 2009 12:21:41
Derek up North

Forget finding a book. You've got to go and buy a couple of unmolested, low mileage, barn find cars of the appropriate year so that you can examine and photograph them, inch by inch for the kind of detail you're looking for. Better buy 3, in case 2 are different and you need a tie-breaker. :)

Feb 16, 2009 12:24:56
PHB

Putting an early Bentley in a concours is a total negation of what the car was about. The whole point of the Bentley was that it was a racing chassis to be adapted and tweaked by the ludicrously rich owner.

Sure folk put blower Bentleys into concours, but the special with an after market turbocharger and over-bored block is much closer to what the car was about.

Folk do that stuff. But the cars that win are in vastly better shape than any car ever came off the end of the production line in Abingdon. How many points would one of those unregistered LE's score?

Feb 16, 2009 12:29:05
jrhickmn

hey derek, i'm telling my wife that it was your idea!

Feb 16, 2009 12:31:18
Derek up North

OK. Just don't tell her where I live! :)

Feb 16, 2009 12:37:20
jrhickmn

derek, i don't know where you live. Canada is a small island off the northern coast of the US, isn't it?

(what comedian said something like "canada is like a nice couple living upstairs from bar?")

Feb 16, 2009 12:57:50
Derek up North

"Canadians are like nice people living above a biker bar" - Robin Williams, referring to Canada and the US.

We're that big pink thing at the top of all the maps in American schools. :)

Feb 16, 2009 14:33:28
blue64

There is such a book, James (and gang). Its called "MGB Service Parts List" publication AKD 3227. Mine is reprinted by the University Motors Press, University Motors, Ada, MI '04. Which means John Twist made some copies and sold them to those of us in the right place at the right time. He may have more--don't know. http://www.universitymotorsltd.com

Although the production line may have assembled things in a slap-dash manner, AKD 3227 shows, for instance, the proper orientation of steering columm universal thru bolt. (lower yolk with flange to the left and bolt in from the bottom--nut, with lockwasher, on top. The same Plate J also shows the detail for the early steering locks supplied to some markets.

AKD 3227 contains the offical factory drawings for every single part on the car (at least the early ones) and they are the exact drawings that many suppliers like Moss and VB use in their catalogs.

There are other sources of information. Some like Clausager's "Original MGB" have already been mentioned but specific questions about specific parts should be posted here. This site is just the bomb!

Cheers and I hope this helps

Paul Hanley
who one year ago was prepping to DRIVE an MGB 1000 miles to be the first MGB ever to take the field at Amelia Island.

Feb 16, 2009 14:38:17
bobmunch

If you want somebody's, just anybody's set of concours standards, get in touch with the good folks who put on the shows for Pebble Beach, http://www.pebblebeachconcours.net/ and those for the Antique Car Club of America, http://www.aaca.org/ . Someone in either group should be able to help you get something like what you are looking for, even if it is the ability to talk/write someone who can help.

Feb 16, 2009 14:46:55
AzMarc

blue64 Wrote:

Quote: "
There is such a book, James (and gang). Its called "MGB Service Parts List" publication AKD 3227.
"


Thanks Paul....email sent to John Twist!

Feb 16, 2009 15:25:16
FTD in an MGB

About a year ago I went to inspect an MGB that a guy was considering restoring. It turned out to be a 1962, one of the first 1,000 cars and in unbelievably original condition despite one repaint from white to red. It even had the original tonneau and top boot, never out of the bags! He is still trying to get funds in order to do the car right, so maybe one day soon I'll have the chance to document the car to bolster whatever reference there is for an original concours car.













Feb 16, 2009 15:46:35
Steve64B

Is there a reference for the correct orientation for the front turn signal lenses?

Feb 16, 2009 16:01:51
mowog1

Steve64B Wrote:

Quote: "
Is there a reference for the correct orientation for the front turn signal lenses?
"


That would be James Woolf.

;)

Feb 16, 2009 16:48:31
FTD in an MGB

Oh and by the way, if it was my car I'd leave it exactly as it is cosmetically...

Feb 16, 2009 17:06:01
Ronzi

Exactly. Old Bodgie the drive-off lad had grease on his pants when it came off the line, and by god those seats are going to stay that way.

Feb 16, 2009 17:17:35
cfrench

I knew Paul would come through !! :)

Feb 16, 2009 17:40:36
Bill Taylor

Steve64B: Here is a shot of the page in my owner's manual showing the orientation. Shop manual is the same. Note the rusted staples resulting from keeping it in the glove box.
Bill

Feb 16, 2009 18:12:26
mac townsend

jrhickmn Wrote:

Quote: "
surely not. there has to be some club or organization SOMEWHERE that has some kind of checklist, at least? if not, i don't think the idea of a judged concourse competition is impossible, but it sure is more subjective.
"


there is NO national Concours d'Elegance sanctioning body. None.

EVERY club sanctioning and organizer as such would have it's own list.

try contacting the local SCCA Region...for one.

another group might well have different standards.

same thing with Vintage Racing, as a matter of fact. What qualified for one group will not necessarily for another.

For example, you will never see an MGBGT racing in the Classic Sports Racing Group in N. Calif. unless that specific car had been racing pre-1972. Why? because in CSRG the car "belongs" to the assn, not the owner. Some groups allow one to take a solid axle Corvette and do a 600 HP big block job on it...which the car never ever could have had back then, others won't accept the entry.

Feb 16, 2009 21:08:19
jpstripeit

After reading all the post I need to chime in. The original concourse judging sheets for the NAMGBR were written by the late Dennis Towbridge. As a concourse judge myself they were very difficult to work with although they were a great starting point. I offered my services to rewrite the judging sheets. In doing so I used the International Show Car Association (ISCA) as the basis for three different sheets of criteria. That why there are six judges at a concourse event. Now there is a specific amount of points that can be awarded for each catagory. When it comes to originally things become very cloudy because there were so many changes on the line at the time of production and the judges need to cover all the years of production. In an effort to make it easier for anyone contemplating a original restoration the book by Clausager was deemed the official resource. When Rick Igram was the concourse coordinator he refined the judging sheets so they are even more user friendly and I'm sure he can clarify if the Clausager book is still the standard resource. So, other than the Clausager book there is no specific "book" on what makes a MGB original.
On a side note, I had a discussion with head designer Don Hayter. We spoke directly of originallity and he said to me, "what went on the cars was the next thing they could grab". I personally know of a late green MGB that came from the plant with a LE steering wheel. Does that make it right? Well, it came from Abingdon like that. Makes you think! Jim Pelletterie

Feb 17, 2009 03:19:06
jrhickmn

all of which comes down to the question: i wonder if it would be possible to get a set of judging sheets into the MGE library? i think it would be a wonderful resource to have.

Feb 17, 2009 04:30:40
roadster65

jrhickmn Wrote:

Quote: "
i have the bentley, the haynes, and several other miscellaneous books, i even have a clausager, but what resource volume--if there is one--do "they" use for concours judging? "


No such Text exists ... and if it did; it would be a Fiction of someones imagination.

The MG-B was basically put together from the parts bin and whatever came to hand as the car came down the assembly line.

To confuse the issue even more: Abingdon would often source the same part frome different suppliers depending on who had the better price; resulting in slight differences between the parts: a good example being the Fender Bolts; some have the cross ridges whilst others don't.

It would also often depend on who was on the assembly line during a shift; and how each worker would attach certain parts to the body: a good example here being the Securing Bracket for the Hood Stay - can face outwards or inwards depending on who attached the item.

Same with the Distribuotor Cap - some had the Leads comng out of the top whilst others had the Leads coming out of the sides ... and each lead had a small tag attached with the lead number printed on it in yellow (almost impossible to get now)

So determining what is genuine factory is a nightmare and why concourse judging is so subjective ... based on one persons opinion of what the factory should've used.

The only way to know if your car is "original" is if someone who actually worked on the line is looking at, and comments on the car ... and that's not foolproof either.





Feb 17, 2009 04:54:42
Steve64B

Bill Taylor Wrote:

Quote: "
Steve64B: Here is a shot of the page in my owner's manual showing the orientation. Shop manual is the same. Note the rusted staples resulting from keeping it in the glove box.
Bill
"


Bill,

Peas and carrots... bread and butter... MG and rust... there are some words that are just always seen together.

Thanks, Steve



Feb 17, 2009 05:27:19
mowog1

From my last year as Concours Coordinator for NAMGBR:


NAMGBR Concours Judging
Rick Ingram, Concours Coordinator


To a lot of enthusiasts the word "concours" brings to mind glistening automobiles worth thousands of dollars on display behind barrier ropes at Pebble Beach. Brought in on trailers that more than likely cost more than the MG you or I drive every day, it has probably been years since these cars have been driven on the roads of North America. Let me assure you that NAMGBR concours judging is not to be compared with this style of "invitation only...concours d'elegance" car show.

Concours is an integral part of each annual convention...so important that its place on the show field is mandated by the Register's convention guidelines. "Why?", you ask. This may be the only opportunity many of our members may have to see an MG that is in the same condition (or as close as possible) as it was when it first left its "womb" in Abingdon. Many restorations have been assisted by photographs of "concours" MGs found on the show field.... the correct colour, fitting, or routing of wiring can be found here in "concours". Concours assists us in "maintaining the breed.

Over the years and with the assistance of many members, the Register has developed a standardized set of scoring sheets and guidelines. This ensures that a Midget judged on the East Coast has been scrutinized under the same standards as a Midget on the West Coast. Being an international Register, continuity between meets is important. Scoring is broken down into three categories; condition, originality, and technical inspection. Thus, a highly original example of an MGB with the patina of maturity can score as well as an overly restored MGB in which originality has been sacrificed. The "official" references should any question arise during judging are "The Original MGB" by Anders Clausager and "The Original Sprite and Midget" by Terry Horler. In order to ensure an unbiased selection of "top point MG", cars are judged by teams made up of both NAMGBR "personnel" and local enthusiasts.

While members will never be forced to display their MG in concours at one of the Register's conventions, we do periodically attempt to persuade participation in this aspect of the meet by members whose car we feel is an obvious candidate for this type of judging. Please consider this option should you be approached and accept the challenge. This is one way that you can give a little back to the Register and its membership.

Concours judging is a great way to find out what's correct and what's been modified on your car to get guidelines on how you can improve it. There is no pressure, no one will berate you for what the previous owner did, but this is where you can find out how to improve. That's what has impressed many people after going through their first concours show. You walk away with a judging sheet that has your future restoration work prioritized.

The next time you attend the car show at a NAMGBR convention, please take time out to view the cars in concours competition. The efforts of our members whose cars are on display will be obvious.... and you WILL learn something about your MG!

"Cheers"
Rick "Ernie" Ingram
Concours Coordinator-NAMGBR
E-mail: Mowog1@aol.com

Webmaster note: As of October 2005 the Concours Coordinator and his address is as follows:

Paul Hanley
12403 Coopers Lane
Worton, MD 21678-1350
(410) 778-3674
mg@baybroadband.net





Feb 17, 2009 05:37:20
200mph

Clausager's is a great reference for production numbers and information. However, it is NOT a great photo reference for details.

Most of the cars in Clausager's were picked because they looked good, were clean, nicely detailed and accessible for photos.

Many have non-standard parts, and non-original details. Most appear to have been restored to excellent condition, without regard to being exactly as they came off the assembly line.

Feb 17, 2009 05:40:36
mowog1

200mph Wrote:

Quote: "
Clausager's is a great reference for production numbers and information. However, it is NOT a great photo reference for details.
Most of the cars in Clausager's were picked because they looked good, were clean, nicely detailed and accessible for photos.
Many have non-standard parts, and non-original details. Most appear to have been restored to excellent condition, without regard to being exactly as they came off the assembly line.
"


I concur....but what else is out there, besides factory manuals? The NAMGBR judging teams do not necessarily use the photographs found in Clausager for reference...it is the printed material that is more important.

Feb 17, 2009 07:05:18
AzMarc

If I am able to secure a MGB Service Parts List" publication AKD 3227 (and things look promising), I will be happy to make copies and distribute to those who request.

I'll keep everyone posted.
Marc

Feb 17, 2009 07:19:12
balloonfoot

mowog1 Wrote:

Quote: "
200mph Wrote:Quote:
Clausager's is a great reference for production numbers and information. However, it is NOT a great photo reference for details.
Most of the cars in Clausager's were picked because they looked good, were clean, nicely detailed and accessible for photos.
Many have non-standard parts, and non-original details. Most appear to have been restored to excellent condition, without regard to being exactly as they came off the assembly line.
I concur....but what else is out there, besides factory manuals? The NAMGBR judging teams do not necessarily use the photographs found in Clausager for reference...it is the printed material that is more important.
"



I was a proof reader on Clausager's book and couldn't agree more. Contemporary photos of cars when they were new is the best evidence of originality, not "restored" cars or "barn find original" cars. Nothing is absolute like a period photo....not parts lists, not Clausager and certainly not pictures of restored cars. There is one book that has quite a few photos taken when the cars were new that is a good source: MGB The Illustrated History by Wood & Burrell.

Feb 17, 2009 07:31:15
bobmunch

Marc, I have BLMC's parts Catalogue which covers all models, tourer, GT, and V8 up to September of 1976, AKM0039, published 2/77. Not as comprehensive as one published at the end of production, and not AKD 3227, but if you think that would be of any value to you, I can send it to you. Just know that it too has errors as verified by actual part #s vs. listings in the book. But it is better than nothing at all and is from the factory.

As to Lloyd's comment on period photographs, that was how I was able to establish (for myself, at least) that replacement grilles for MGAs had their slats angled wrong. Found some good factory photos, positioned myself so the viewing angles were as close to the same as possible, and there it was, bigger than you know what ~ the OE grille's slats were open significantly more than what was coming from Moss or anyone else at that time (early 90's). As some had suspected, the new grilles were doing a much better job of deflecting the air, than passing it. I agree with Lloyd, you have to get back to the point in time of originality to have as true a notion of what that might have been as possible. Anything that has come after that point is just not the same.

Feb 17, 2009 07:52:56
balloonfoot

bobmunch Wrote:

Quote: "
......BLMC's parts Catalogue which covers all models, tourer, GT, and V8 up to September of 1976, AKM0039, published 2/77. Not as comprehensive as one published at the end of production, and not AKD 3227.....Just know that it too has errors as verified by actual part #s vs. listings in the book. But it is better than nothing at all and is from the factory.
"



This book (along with its companion book AKM0037 MGB Sept 1976 on) is a compilation of drawings done when Leyland was switching over to micro-fiche and was doing away with printed parts books. Many of the illustrations were from the original parts books printed in the '60s. It is interesting to note that the book on the later cars (AKM0037) does not cover the last cars like the LE series. Only the micro-fiche has those illustrations and part numbers. I copied that micro-fiche and gave away parts books to fellow originality nuts back in the late '80s...don't know who might have them now.

BUT........these books are just some of the things needed to document originality.

Feb 17, 2009 08:40:11
Ludwiggibson

Ed thats Roadster is beautiful,

I went to a great MG specialist in my area the other day, just a tiny little lock up, but these guys restore cars to the highest standard, anyway there was a roadster in there number 301 off the production line! it was beautiful.

Off the point but that picture reminded me of it

Feb 17, 2009 08:43:48
balloonfoot

Hah Mark.....a re-import from the good ol' USA ! ! ! !

Feb 17, 2009 09:29:29
Berto

My 2 pence worth;

mowog1 Wrote: [quote]

While members will never be forced to display their MG in concours at one of the Register's conventions, we do periodically attempt to persuade participation in this aspect of the meet by members whose car we feel is an obvious candidate for this type of judging. Please consider this option should you be approached and accept the challenge. This is one way that you can give a little back to the Register and its membership.


This is so true! The car that took top points at MG2007 in Sonoma was one that I had 'talked into' the field to participate.

We still use the 3-page forms developed by Jim and modified by Rick, we are always looking to improve based on feedback and experience but this method, along with 3 teams of 2 judges is the most unbiased method available.

The judging for MG's is not as strict or as formal as those from the large 'named' concours events. For one, these cars are meant to be driven and a great deal of their beauty is in the owners enjoyment of the car. If we had to be as technical as to 'was the right bolt used in this particular spot' we would never get through judging in the time allocated. Add that to the point that MG used whatever part was available at the time, and in some cases had to 'go into town and buy stuff off the shelf at a parts store' makes strict concours judging for MGB's next to impossible. We also do not have 'professional judges' we get volunteers to give up of their time at the event to judge the cars (jury of your peers).

Now that is not to say that just any car can be judged top points. A car with the wrong size wheels, a V8 Conversion (not a factory V8) or even a car with a carb conversion or a supercharger would not have points awarded in those categories.

In Sonoma we had one car in Concours that had a color change, (they displayed the Heritage Certificate) While the car was nicely done it was not scored as high as it would have had it been repainted in the original color.

Now, is this the right way to do it? Everybody has their opinion but if you look at the cars that have taken top points at NAMGBR events you will have to admit that they are some pretty spectacular cars that have been restored or maintained to a high standard and are well deserving of the honor.

Feb 17, 2009 09:55:27
balloonfoot

Berto Wrote:

Quote: "
My 2 pence worth;
mowog1 Wrote:
The judging for MG's is not as strict or as formal as those from the large 'named' concours events. For one, these cars are meant to be driven and a great deal of their beauty is in the owners enjoyment of the car. If we had to be as technical as to 'was the right bolt used in this particular spot' we would never get through judging in the time allocated.......
"


All cars are meant to be 'driven' and are......if you don't raise the standard, it will never be raised.

Ok....I've been into MG's for a VERY long time, so don't throw me under the bus here.

I belong to the Porsche 356 Register and the National Corvette Restorers Society and have cars in both. You want to talk anal? Talk originality with these guys. The thing that always makes me mad is that because the cars (MGBs) are plentiful and cheap there is no real passion in the sense of preserving history in the MG crowd like the other marques. There is also no real market for 'correct' parts. Cost always wins out. So Moss keeps selling what they sell....because it sells. I just saw a beautifully restored MGB on this forum that I had never seen before....and it has chinese bumpers! ! ! What can I say.....

Feb 17, 2009 10:19:46
bobmunch

I'm not sure I'd agree that there is no passion to preserve history among MGers. Among the shows I've been to (some nat'l, some regional) there seems to be plenty of preservationists, even amongst MGBs, sometimes to the point of obsession. I think it is excellent that these folks have decided to attempt to keep their truly original cars as is, or others have sought to recreate (and I think that is closer to the truth) their cars into something as close as possible to the way it left Abingdon. They are reference points for history and for the rest of us MG owners. But I guess that in the case of the MGB and its large production run, I simply don't see a need for the fleet of survivors to all remain unmodified.

Yes, there have been some real abortions done to some of them, and some just push the MG envelope to its limits. But do we need for more than what we already have in the way of Original or Concours Bs? Given the passion of the owners of these cars to preserve them and to pass them on to other preservationists, I think that the sheer numbers of cars extant that fall into this category ought satisfy both history and continuing interest for sometime to come.

But I do agree with the thoughts about parts. People like myself are much more interested in quality of whatever parts there are, than that they be exact duplicates of what came from the factory. But then, I'm not driving a concours or original car being preserved as a specimen of MG history. I am driving a car I happen to like, that suits me, and with good quality parts, has also proven a part of MG history that some LBC mythology seems to negate ~ that these cars could be reliable and could actually serve as routine transportation for a great many years. The fact that I don't need a "hair shirt" to accomplish this also says something about the history of this marque, even if the old beast in my driveway isn't quite as pure as it could be.

Feb 17, 2009 10:38:27
balloonfoot

Bob...you have me all wrong. I am building a "modified" MGB right now. I have done V8 conversions and works replicas.

What I am talking about is the lack of good historical authenticity among the "restored" car guys. It is just one aspect of our hobby, but to me a car that was produced in such great numbers has very little in the way of 'standards' for originality. They made a fraction the number of 356s for example, but in comparison MGB owners are walking around in the dark blindfolded. It is all market driven. Check out the prices of correct 356 parts. A 356 bumper in bare metal (painted, they weren't even chrome) is $400-600. Would an MGB guy pay that? No way. He'll pay $128 to Moss for a chrome one and what does he get? One made in China that can be spotted from a mile away. He would be much better off finding and rechroming an original. But he does'n know that and neither do the people looking at his car. That's what makes me mad.

Feb 17, 2009 10:45:11
AzMarc

I hear what you are saying Lloyd but what it all boils down to is education. There are a lot of folks that just want to own an MG soley for fun and that's great. We also have a pretty decent size contingent of folks that want to learn as much about the originality aspect but there just does not seem to be a dedicated forum strictly for the originality buffs.

One of the things I like about the MG is that there is something for everyone.....

Feb 17, 2009 11:05:41
balloonfoot

AzMarc Wrote:

Quote: "
I hear what you are saying Lloyd but what it all boils down to is education.....we also have a pretty decent size contingent of folks that want to learn as much about the originality aspect but there just does not seem to be a dedicated forum strictly for the originality buffs......
"


Well Marc, I started writing a column in the 'MGB DRIVER' on originality...we'll see what happens. The best thing you can do is gain as much knowledge of what original parts look like, so that when you see a 'new part' or something that is selling as 'NOS' you can make a value judgment on how 'correct' it is. Take Lucas toggle switches for example. They may come in an orange Lucas box or bag but chances are they are made in India. Compare one to an original and decide for yourself....is it close enough or do I keep looking? For myself...since I do ALL my own work, I can usually be found to pay 'high' prices for the parts that I think should be 'original' and still not feel 'upside down' in a car. This may be an entirely proposition for someone not doing all his own work based on the 'value' (low compared to other cars) of the car when finished.

Feb 17, 2009 11:22:33
Berto

Lloyd
You are right that all cars are meant to be driven and yes I wish that replacement parts were of a higher quality. Now here is the chicken and the egg question. Compared to other 'collectible' cars MG's are relatively cheap and affordable to a great many people. Now is the cars value low because of cheap repro parts or does that enable the cars to remain affordable or both? Would having a $400.00 reproduction Bumper increase the value of our cars or would they remain the same due to sheer volume Would the higher cost of restoration keep us from driving our cars as much?

I am not defending cheap repro parts as I hate them, just wondering out loud.

Feb 17, 2009 11:36:18
Lee

Bumpers, if it was my car, guilty, and I know it. Until I have the money to find and rechome an original set they will have to suffice.

Feb 17, 2009 11:54:03
balloonfoot

well Robert.....(read my edit above) the cost of restoration is not the deciding factor in the car being driven in my opinion.....There is something about MG owners in general that prevents them from using their cars once they reach a certain point of restoration. I can't explain it. 356 owners routinely drive their nearly perfect cars across the country for events, yet these cars are all worth many times what the best MGB could be worth. Even TC owners drive their cars (fully restored) more than MGB guys to long distance events. If you lived in SoCal, you would see Jay Leno driving his cars all the time.

I truely believe that the reason MGs in general have such a low regard as far as 'restored' cars go is that there has always been a source of cheap parts available to 'keep the cars going'....and when NOS was used up the suppliers have simply had the stuff made, cheaply. Now people think it is should be expensive to restore a 356, or Jaguar, or an early Corvette (made in numbers far greater than MGBs by the way) but it should be cheap to do an MGB.....Al Moss are you listening? It has always been easy to do a 'checkbook' restoration on an MG....by checkbook I mean...sit down and write out a check to order the parts...too easy. If you had to put in some 'effort' to find a part....well you would naturally look down on someone who didn't put forth that effort. Moss has been reproducing bogus MGA bumpers for so long, that you can routinely see them on 30-40K TWIN CAMS...you would think that cost would no object on that car? Pity the lowly common MGB then.

Feb 17, 2009 12:04:22
balloonfoot

Lee Wrote:

Quote: "
Bumpers, if it was my car, guilty, and I know it. Until I have the money to find and rechome an original set they will have to suffice.
"


Not pickin' on you, Lee....but wouldn't say so even if I was.........

Feb 17, 2009 12:18:39
Emil Wojcik

balloonfoot Wrote:

Quote: "
...They made a fraction the number of 356s for example, but in comparison MGB owners are walking around in the dark blindfolded. It is all market driven. Check out the prices of correct 356 parts. A 356 bumper in bare metal (painted, they weren't even chrome) is $400-600. Would an MGB guy pay that? No way. He'll pay $128 to Moss for a chrome one and what does he get? One made in China that can be spotted from a mile away. He would be much better off finding and rechroming an original. But he does'n know that and neither do the people looking at his car. That's what makes me mad.
"


Lloyd, You've got that right. At some 356 concours events you'll see guys roll their cars off the trailer into the exact spot the car will be shown so the only part of the tire to ever touch ground is the patch it sits on. And up until just a few years ago, many wouldn't even have any fluids in the engine or trans and would use grease in the steering box just to be sure everything remains perfectly clean (Today, a lot more shows make you start the car as part of the judging). I mean these guys are beyond anal!

But, having said that, and having a 356 of my own, I can say that there is a difference between the 356 world and MGBs just because MGs are so much more plentiful. Yes, there are LOTS of 356s around - they've proven to be real survivors. But compare them to the number of MGBs around and you can start to understand why many 356 owners think it's their duty to preserve their cars as correct and clean as possible. And getting things right, like making correct replacement parts, cost money. I don't think the MG world, on the whole, would stand for the prices that they would have to pay for a completely accurate reproduction bumper, or anything else for that matter.

I actually drive my 356 and although it's been nicely restored, it will never be a concours candidate. The fun's in the driving. Just like an MG. One of the great things about MGBs is that there are so many around. That makes parts cheap, even if they're not exact compared to the originals. It also means you're not so afraid to drive it the way it was intended to be driven. Or park it at the mall. And if you do choose to restore an MG to concours level, you may actually be able to afford it without selling your kids. And the documentation available to restore things correctly to concours level is much easier for the MG. Get a dozen 356 judges together and each one will have a different take on even the simplest things. There was just too much variation during the original assembly, sometimes even between two cars that were assembled side by side. It's EASY to restore an MG correctly!

Feb 17, 2009 12:29:27
200mph

I think the idea of "concours" goes in two VERY different directions.

The idea of concours being perfect condition is embodied by groups such as the AACA, where award-winning cars are prepared way better than the factory was capable of, and where things like gleaming basecoat/clearcoat paint on old cars isnt just tolerated, but encouraged.

The other direction is to restore the car to look exactly as it did when it left the factory, as the Corvette and Porsche folks like to do.

Neither is correct or preferred, but the standards are quite different.

Feb 17, 2009 12:32:45
balloonfoot

Mike....you totally correct.........

Feb 17, 2009 14:42:03
Ronzi

A question for Berto, and Rick Ingram:
As a judge, do you actually award points for originality?
Or do you have, say, 50 available points for a theoretically totally original interior, and then take off points for the wrong shift knob, or whatever? In other words, everybody starts with a perfect score and loses points as the judging goes along.

Feb 17, 2009 15:51:41
bobmunch

Oh! Sorry Lloyd. I thought you were pushing for more "authentic" MGBs and fewer ordinary driver and modified MGBs. I do see your points about the mentality of restoration and preservation, and I suppose that even with my driver GT there is some of that mentality in what I have done over the years. Most of my mods have been for reliability, a better, more efficient electrical system (relays), and the addition of some relatively modern accessories to make daily use not only more comfortable, but closer to a current standard (like a wiper delay). Not big changes, and nothing, to my mind that detracts significantly from the car's original character.

One thing tho, I would say, about the difference between owners of some makes and ours is the availability of money to finance a restoration. Certainly, not everyone who chooses to do these cars is cash strapped, but a good many who I have met are not as flush or as willing to invest as much into a restoration as, say, Porsche owners often are. And I have a few friends in that fraternity as well.

For many, to do an MG was the more comfortable reach than something like a Porsche 356 or even a Mercedes 280SL, much less an XKE or beyond. That a water pump could be had for the price of one on a Toyota Corolla rather than one on an Audi pretty much made the decision for many folks. And so has the simple availability of parts. To say that an MGB restoration was more readily accomplished and easily gratifying does not detract from its satisfaction, but I agree that it does not require the same commitment of time and resources that doing something like a 1932 Singer does.

That, and the world of restoration and old cars has changed significantly on several fronts since the days when Hemmings was about the size of a comic book. There is a lot more of everything available today than when I first got involved in the 1960s. And, much of it is new, not NOS, as the NOS inventories have dried up or gone golden. And that has become both a blessing and a curse.

For my purposes, as I said above, I want quality that assures correct and reliable function and construction first and if I get authentic looks and construction, that is a bonus. But sometimes, as you well know, we get neither. In my case I can live with a part that is perhaps even superior in functionality to OE stuff but is turned out in production facilities that are going to make it in the same way as what they are making for current production, because it saves them money and time. I can live with that, but it does nothing for those who are working towards the goal of authenticity and originality which is often as much concerned with appearance as with function. The parts work right (like a new Lockheed brake M/C) but often look nothing like what came with the cars. And other parts are, IMO, simply make-do because there is insufficient commitment and willingness to pay for exact reproductions.

Not even Mr. MacGregor sells door seals that are anything quite like what came with my '68 GT originally, even if those he has are still the best available. And his dilemma is shared by a great many of our suppliers. Conscientious as they might be, it is a rare supplier who can afford to go to the Nth degree. We are probably lucky that suppliers like Moss have the resources to do as well as they do or we might have a helluva lot less to use, and perhaps MGBs might well have had a similar fate as other much more ubiquitous cars like the Pinto or Chevy Vega. I see a lot more MGBs than either of those these days, and perhaps that is where the passion lies, in simply keeping them from the crusher.

Feb 17, 2009 16:26:03
balloonfoot

you know Bob.....I think that you have put it just right. Not much more need be added....great job.

Feb 17, 2009 20:48:09
cfrantz

Why do I have a MGB? I have one because I like them and the parts are available. I have owned other cars from a 1963 Avainti, Fiat X 1/9, Simca Bertone Coupe, Volvo 144, Opel Gt, Datsun 280z and the MGB had the best parts availability of any of those. As stated above, price does pay a part in this too, this is a hobby/entertainment for me not my sole purpose in life.

Feb 18, 2009 14:46:02
mowog1

Ronzi Wrote:

Quote: "
A question for Berto, and Rick Ingram:
As a judge, do you actually award points for originality?
Or do you have, say, 50 available points for a theoretically totally original interior, and then take off points for the wrong shift knob, or whatever? In other words, everybody starts with a perfect score and loses points as the judging goes along.
"


As currently set up, yes, one would start with a perfect score. Each area judged is worth a set number of points...deductions made as necessary.

I have judged both Paul Hanley's and Brooks Amiot's MGBs. It would be hard to find finer examples in North America that do not reside in a museum.

I'm sure that Paul Hanley would share the judging sheets with anyone who would like to see them.

NAMGBR Concours judging was never intended to be a Pebble Beach, AACA, Meadowbrook type of competition. And I hope that it never becomes such a competition....because as has been stated several times throughout this thread...these cars were meant to be driven!

Feb 20, 2009 21:12:20
AzMarc

I just purchased "MGB Service Parts List" publication AKD 3227" from Ebay Australia....Once it arrives, I am happy to make copies or look anything up if requested....

Cheers,
Marc

Feb 21, 2009 02:25:30
roadster65

AzMarc Wrote:

Quote: "
I just purchased "MGB Service Parts List" publication AKD 3227" from Ebay Australia....Once it arrives, I am happy to make copies or look anything up if requested....
Cheers,
Marc
"


How did you do that ? ... I've never seen that listed on eBay Australia ... do you have the link ?

Feb 21, 2009 14:48:12
AzMarc

roadster65 Wrote:

Quote: "

How did you do that ? ... I've never seen that listed on eBay Australia ... do you have the link ?
"


http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&item=320341138127

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