MGB: Ft Hood shooting

Not to sound politically incorrect, but they just identified the main shooter...Malik Nadal Hasan. I can't wait to see how the media handles this one. They have two more suspects in custody...want to bet their name ain't Smith?

I have been listening and they are being very very careful. They can't really say much until they look at his computer and figure out the why. But this will be something as to how it is handled. Probably much like Europe has been dealing with.

I don;t know if its true or not, but I heard own
our local news that the two suspects have been released!
Anyone know for sure?

Yeah, they said they released the two suspects. But they have arrested a 3rd person of interest. Seems hard to believe that one person could have caused so much damage.

[quote=bbrower]
They have two more suspects in custody...want to bet their name ain't Smith?[/quote]

Racist much?

Lt. Gen. Robert Cone: Fort Hood Shooting Suspect is Alive and in Custody [9:15 p.m. ET]

why couldn't the crazy sob have used a spud gun instead, then there would have been only one casualty....Mr Potato Head.

[quote=bbrower]
Not to sound politically incorrect, but they just identified the main shooter...Malik Nadal Hasan. I can't wait to see how the media handles this one. They have two more suspects in custody...want to bet their name ain't Smith?[/quote]

Was it....McVey?....or Nichols?

Shall we wait for the facts....or just jump to conclusions that don't pan out?

NBC News’ Pete Williams reported that U.S. officials identified the gunman as Maj. Nidal Malik Hasan, an Army psychiatrist who had been promoted to major in May. A defense official told NBC News that Hasan arrived at Fort Hood in July for his first assignment after completing his psychiatry residency at Walter Reed Army Medical Center in Washington, followed by a fellowship in disaster and preventive psychiatry.

Hasan, who was 39 or 40, was scheduled to be deployed to Iraq on Nov. 28, officials said. Sen. Kay Bailey Hutchison, R-Texas, said military officials had told her that Hasan was “pretty upset” about his deployment orders
An unidentified source told AP the shooting suspect killed at a Texas US base, Malik Nadal Hasan, was an Army mental health professional.

Counter-terror plans will be revised to reflect Fort Hood and Afghan attacks

http://timesonline.typepad.com/crime/2009/11/counterterror-plans-will-be-revised-to-reflect-fort-hood-and-afghan-attacks-.html#

[quote=bbrower]
Not to sound politically incorrect, but they just identified the main shooter...Malik Nadal Hasan. I can't wait to see how the media handles this one. They have two more suspects in custody...want to bet their name ain't Smith?[/quote]

Ah, I love the smell of prejudice in the morning.

Another devout Muslim..not prejudice, not PC...just a fact.

[quote=don4975]
Another devout Muslim..not prejudice, not PC...just a fact.[/quote]

OK Don, I'm calling you out on that one.

Do you believe that in order to be a "devout Muslim" you have to kill US citizens?
Do you believe that there are Muslims out there who are "devout", yet live peaceably and abhor violence?

I look forward to your "factual" answers.

hey Richard(s)

what country should we invade for this shooting?

Iran? Lebanon?

we gotta show the world, the turrerrists, the evil doers we don't take this crap. we need to spread some more freedom and democracy to prove Uncle Sam won't have his ass kicked.

who we getting back at for this act?

I thought it interesting that Fox broke the news this guy has been a life long Muslim while the others were still saying he was a converted to Muslim not that it changes anything other than he is Islamic through and through and always has been....a fact others seemed to miss.

Seems pretty clear to me there were plenty of indications this guy had a problem and REALLY didn't want to go....

FNC again on the cutting edge of bonafide REAL news reporting. Glad ding and nut insisited I was a viewer...glad I now am thanks to their persistant snipeing. FNC grabbed a teriffic coup on a breaking story.

Scary stuff all this....

This is a very sad situation for our country. Due process of law will determine the outcome. Be not quick, angry, to take sides, or to trumpet personal feelings and vendettas where sorrow exists, but allow time and patience for justice to prevail. CWW, Aiken, SC

[quote=kirks-auto]
I thought it interesting that Fox broke the news this guy has been a life long Muslim while the others were still saying he was a converted to Muslim not that it changes anything other than he is Islamic through and through and always has been....a fact others seemed to miss.

Seems pretty clear to me there were plenty of indications this guy had a problem and REALLY didn't want to go....

FNC again on the cutting edge of bonafide REAL news reporting. Glad ding and nut insisited I was a viewer...glad I now am thanks to their persistant snipeing. FNC grabbed a teriffic coup on a breaking story.

Scarry stuff all this....[/quote]

Kirk, are you now a regular viewer of Fox News?

In previous posts you claimed you are not, what changed?

[quote=don4975]
Another devout Muslim..not prejudice, not PC...just a fact.[/quote]

Also, Don, do you know there are about 3,000 murders every 10 weeks in the US? And the overwhelming majority of that is Christian on Christian? You do know the Mafia, and drug gangs are not Muslim right?

Also it is reported that he is Palistinian either by birth or first generation. What is a palistinian anyway....a displaced arab that is not wanted by the other arab coountries hence they blame jews for their plight...misplaced I think.

[quote=walshja]
hey Richard(s)

what country should we invade for this shooting?

Iran? Lebanon?

we gotta show the world, the turrerrists, the evil doers we don't take this crap. we need to spread some more freedom and democracy to prove Uncle Sam won't have his ass kicked.

who we getting back at for this act?[/quote]

I think, if this guy has any children we torture that child to see if he knows of any additional plots, and then we start bombing every lamb kabob and pita bread stand we can find in the entire middle east... we have to show them, and we must use overwhelming force.. they are all guilty and through our enhanced interrogations of his child or relatives, we will find that he is an AlCIAduh member... This is too much to bear.. Cheney save me, save me .

Fox hosts want ’special screenings’ for Muslims in military

David Edwards and Muriel Kane
Raw Story
Friday, November 6, 2009

In the wake of a shooting rampage at Fort Hood by a military psychiatrist of Middle Eastern lineage, the hosts at Fox News have begun suggesting that all Muslims in the military should be treated as potential threats.

“Do you think it’s time for the military to have special debriefings of Muslim Army officers — anybody enlisted?” Fox’s Brian Kilmeade asked Geraldo Rivera on Friday morning. “Because if I’m going to be deployed in a foxhole, if I’m going to be sticking in an outpost, I got to know the guy next to me is not going to want to kill me.”

Rivera pivoted. “But isn’t this the headline, Brian, that there are four or five million American Muslims and how scant and few and far between these horrifying incidents are?”

“I’ve been in Afghanistan with these guys,” Rivera continued, “in Iraq with these guys. They are treasured for their bilingualism, their multiculturalism, the fact that they can bridge and understand and translate for us.”

Fox’s Gretchen Carlson, however, joined the bandwagon. “Our society has become very politically correct,” she objected. “Could it be that the military was also exercising political correctness, even though he had a poor performance report and even though he spoke openly about being a radical Muslim and had those supposed postings online?”

Fox News legal analyst Peter J. Johnson jumped in, asking Rivera, “You won’t countenance special screening for Muslims will you?”

“It’s a hard step for me to take,” Rivera replied. “This is an American born person. This is not a naturalized citizen.”

ANOTHER SHOOTING.... and this guy is 'gasp' not a Muslim?
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,572605,00.html

Muslim screening in the military over this?
How about we screen conservatives in the military over Oklahoma City? After all Nichols and McVey where extremist conservatives and they killed 168 at the Murrah Bldg.
Or Jews over Pollard. Maybe we should screen all environmentalists because Ted Kazinski was one.
This 'guilt by association' has got to end or it will swallow us all

[quote=taskadog]
Muslim screening in the military over this?
How about we screen conservatives in the military over Oklahoma City? After all Nichols and McVey where extremist conservatives and they killed 168 at the Murrah Bldg.
Or Jews over Pollard. Maybe we should screen all environmentalists because Ted Kazinski was one.
This 'guilt by association' has got to end or it will swallow us all[/quote]

Very well put...

[quote=taskadog]
Muslim screening in the military over this?
How about we screen conservatives in the military over Oklahoma City? After all Nichols and McVey where extremist conservatives and they killed 168 at the Murrah Bldg.
Or Jews over Pollard. Maybe we should screen all environmentalists because Ted Kazinski was one.
This 'guilt by association' has got to end or it will swallow us all[/quote]

Ditto.

no, no, if Fox News is saying we should screen, we should screen

according to Kirks poll, people trust Fox News, we should all trust Fox News.

.......and here I thought the reasons for your postings was to inform us and that we should trust you...........what a disappointment.......now what?

don't trust me, trust Fox News !!!!

911.....whats your religion.??? I fear it is being under represented here on this issue you posted.....one can only pray for justice....
"Also, Don, do you know there are about 3,000 murders every 10 weeks in the US? And the overwhelming majority of that is Christian on Christian? You do know the Mafia, and drug gangs are not Muslim right?"

[quote=taskadog]

Or Jews over Pollard. [/quote]

Hey...that's MY last name...and I love my Jewish pals (and I have quite a few).

I guess it's good that I don't have access to any sensitive data...other than what I pick up here on the OTP...

Phil, if it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, swims like a duck, its a duck. Profiling aint all bad and its done every day to protect the majority. Sorry if this gets your knickers in a bunch but its true. ALL THE 911 PERPS WERE MUSLIM. THE SHOOTER YESTERDAY WAS MUSLIM.

Chuck,
You need to consider and reconsider what you just posted. This man is a bonafide US born citizen who is mentally unstable. I am no MD I am not an apoligist, I am just as concerned as you about this terrible occurance. But this has no coerlation to 9/11 this is about a man, who wanted to be patriotic, joined the armed forces and accelerated to "Major" and lost it when he was faced with very personal choices. He did try to find help, help and relief were denied. Right wrong or indifferent its not up to you nor I to decide.

All the signs were there and no co worker, superior, congress woman, family, were able to intervene. I HATE Alcaida and the war as much as the next correct thinker. But lets all stay focused. Mentally disturbed individuals are not our National enemy regardless of what they do. They are certainly a social concern but this tragedy has nothing to do with anything other than a desperate man seeking desperate means to escape what he saw as a desperate situation.

My armoured heart pours out to the victims AND the family of this lost and desperate soul.

When/if other facts surface I reserve my right to comment then. But on the face of what I now know, this is tragedy built on tragedy that someone had ample time to spot and respond.
And I DO NOT dismiss his culpability...life or worse in Ft. Leveanworth...hard labor. And that is totally justified. IMHO...

Robert,
Well said!!

Chuck,
"ALL THE 911 PERPS WERE MUSLIM. THE SHOOTER YESTERDAY WAS MUSLIM. "
Nichols and McVeigh where white middle Amerian Republicans, so are you, what's your point?

PHil,

Theres no linkage to Mc Vey or Nickols, why bring that up? Oh I get it, they were white and amercian and doubly bad? The perp yesterday WAS muslim and somehow gets a bye? This has nothing to do with OKC.

The shooter yesterday was arab and a muslim. How come you have a problem with that. It is what it is. Im sick and tired of the diversity BS put out by you guys. Islam is not peaceful and its time to recognize that. There is PROOF he supported suicide beliefs by Arabs. Its time to realize that there are bad guys out there and in that Geo Bush was right.

Your kind of thinking makes me puke.

Chuck,
Nichols and McVeigh where bad because they where bad, it had nothing to do with being white or Republican or American. They where just evil.

The same can probably be said for this most rcent a$shole. He is jus sick and evil, it has nothing to do with being a Muslim just as McVeighs evil had nothing to do with being a Christian.

Having to explain a analogy to men who don't think makes me puke.

You are dead wrong.

Don and Chuck Life up here in NYC is diversified to say the least, there are exceptions to everything,sure i thought the same thing you did,and if thatsurprises you it should'nt,its human nature,but its simple not true and GWB would not agree with either one of you ---------------------Things aint the same today,my people came here,they pledged loyality to the country,i never ever heard anyone of them refer to there country of origin as "my country",America was there country and they served in the military and fought in both WW. Did you know your not required to say the "Pledge of Aligance" when you become a citizen,this is what is wrong,to much liberal rights crap.

Sly I have no objection to muslims. What I object to is people racing to their side saying all muslims arent bad, well they are nt all good either.

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/politics/2010214367_apusforthoodshootingsuspect.html

"He swore an oath of loyalty to the military," Grieger said. "I didn't hear anything contrary to those oaths."

But, more recently, federal agents grew suspicious.

At least six months ago, Hasan came to the attention of law enforcement officials because of Internet postings about suicide bombings and other threats, including posts that equated suicide bombers to soldiers who throw themselves on a grenade to save the lives of their comrades.

Robert, it is not that simple. Regardless his problems. He did not want to go to Iraq. Lots of people have not wanted to go. They did not kill a bunch of people. My only question would be his reason. I understand he did not want to go because he did not support the mission. He did not believe in attacking and killing other Muslims. So we need to understand why he then chose to kill a bunch of American soldiers. If he chose to do the killing because of the mission and his stance that it is wrong to kill muslims and he is muslim I would consider this an act of terror by a muslim.

How could you find any different.

http://www.riflewarrior.com/okc.html <<<<< LINK OKC

THE BOMBING OF THE ALFRED P. MURRAH FEDERAL BUILDING

Oklahoma City, April 19th, 1995

By Craig Roberts

Tulsa Police Department (Ret.)

September 4th, 1996

An Investigative Report

[quote=cstrong45]
Islam is not peaceful and its time to recognize that.[/quote]

[quote=cstrong45]
I have no objection to muslims.
[/quote]

:S

Blues, if McVeigh was a right wing extremist terrorist and mass killer because of his right wing beliefs and revenge for Waco. What is the difference between that and a muslim extremist commiting an act of mass killing because of his revenge for being sent to Iraq and soldiers killing other muslims. It is what it is.

SJJ, I like the Muslims that I know but I have great disregard for those who kill innocent civillians.. The all seem to fit into a pretty consistent mold. I have been away from the news for a day or two so I don't know just what the Muslim community is saying. I would think they are saying it had nothing to do with religion and it is nothing more than a crime like any other crime.

Quote: "SJJ, I like the Muslims that I know but I have great disregard for those who kill innocent civillians.. The all seem to fit into a pretty consistent mold."

:S Who seem to fit into a pretty consistent mould?

This might turn out to a guy gone nutzoid, or it might turn out to be a terrorist attack. The investigation will tell us the facts in due course. Regardless, what annoys me is when people use isolated incidents such as this in order to spout their utter ignorance about a whole ideology followed peacefully by millions worldwide.

We don't label Christianity as hateful based on the actions of the Westboro Baptists, nor deem Mormonism as immoral when we learn a sect of it has been happily marrying off and having intercourse with underage girls. So why do some people seem so keen to condemn Islam when events such as those at Fort Hood happen?

Ultimately, I think it's ignorance and laziness to blame (and partly, a need for a boogyman now that the Commies have gone away). Some people's brains are just too lazy - or not capable in the first place - to do the reading and the thinking. When they think Muslim, their brains shortcircuit and immediately equate it to "terrorist". And whilst that result may indeed turn out to be correct in this specific case, the process that got them there is flawed.

Some of my best friends are prejudiced...

Like I said, he was just being a good Muslim...you can twist it anyway you want but to sacrifice one's life in killing infidels carries the highest reward in Islam. His family might even get a reward $$$ from Saudi Arabia as they provide this for suicide bombers.

As for those who are slain in the cause of Allah, He will not allow their works to perish. He will vouchsafe them guidance and ennoble their state; He will admit them to the Paradise He has made known to them. - 10:4-15

I hope he finds his 72 virgins very soon.

wake up!
___________________________________________________________________________________________
Allah is an enemy to unbelievers. - Sura 2:98

On unbelievers is the curse of Allah. - Sura 2:161

Slay them wherever ye find them and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution is worse than slaughter. - 2:191

Fight against them until idolatry is no more and Allah's religion reigns supreme. (different translation: ) Fight them until there is no persecution and the religion is God's entirely. - Sura 2:193 and 8:39

Fighting is obligatory for you, much as you dislike it. - 2:216
(different translation: ) Prescribed for you is fighting, though it is hateful to you.

..... martyrs.... Enter heaven - Surah 3:140-43

If you should die or be killed in the cause of Allah, His mercy and forgiveness would surely be better than all they riches they amass. If you should die or be killed, before Him you shall all be gathered. - 3:157-8

You must not think that those who were slain in the cause of Allah are dead. They are alive, and well-provided for by their Lord. - Surah 3:169-71

Let those fight in the cause of God who sell the life of this world for the hereafter. To him who fights in the cause of God, whether he is slain or victorious, soon we shall give him a great reward. - Surah 4:74

Those who believe fight in the cause of God, and those who reject faith fight in the cause of evil. - 4:76

But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever you find them. - 4:89

Therefore, we stirred among them enmity and hatred, which shall endure till the Day of Resurrection, when Allah will declare to them all that they have done. - 5:14

O believers, take not Jews and Christians as friends; they are friends of each other. Those of you who make them his friends is one of them. God does not guide an unjust people. - 5:54

Make war on them until idolatry is no more and Allah's religion reigns supreme - 8:39

O Prophet! Exhort the believers to fight. If there are 20 steadfast men among you, they shall vanquish 200; and if there are a hundred, they shall rout a thousand unbelievers, for they are devoid of understanding. - 8:65

It is not for any Prophet to have captives until he has made slaughter in the land. - 8:67

Allah will humble the unbelievers. Allah and His apostle are free from obligations to idol-worshipers. Proclaim a woeful punishment to the unbelievers. - 9:2-3

When the sacred months are over, slay the idolaters wherever you find them. Arrest them, besiege them, and lie in ambush everywhere for them. - 9:5

Believers! Know that idolators are unclean. - 9:28

Fight those who believe neither in God nor the Last Day, nor what has been forbidden by God and his messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, even if they are People of the Book, until they pay the tribute and have been humbled. - 9:29 (another source: ) The unbelievers are impure and their abode is hell. (another source: ) Humiliate the non-Muslims to such an extent that they surrender and pay tribute.

Whether unarmed or well-equipped, march on and fight for the cause of Allah, with your wealth and your persons. - 9:41

O Prophet! Make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites. Be harsh with them. Their ultimate abode is hell, a hapless journey's end. - 9:73

Allah has purchased of their faithful lives and worldly goods, and in return has promised them the Garden. They will fight for His cause, kill and be killed. - 9:111

Fight unbelievers who are near to you. 9:123 (different translation:
Believers! Make war on the infidels who dwell around you. Let them find harshness in you. (another source: ) Ye who believe! Murder those of the disbelievers....

As for those who are slain in the cause of Allah, He will not allow their works to perish. He will vouchsafe them guidance and ennoble their state; He will admit them to the Paradise He has made known to them. - 10:4-15

Allah has cursed the unbelievers and proposed for them a blazing hell. - 33:60

Unbelievers are enemies of Allah and they will roast in hell. - 41:14

When you meet the unbelievers, smite their necks, then when you have made wide slaughter among them, tie fast the bonds, then set them free, either by grace or ransom, until the war lays down its burdens. - 47:4
(different translation: ) When you meet the unbelievers in the battlefield, strike off their heads, and when you have laid them low, bind your captives firmly.

Those who are slain in the way of Allah - he will never let their deeds be lost. Soon will he guide them and improve their condition, and admit them to the Garden, which he has announced for them. - 47:5

Muslims are harsh against the unbelievers, merciful to one another. - 48:25

Muhammad is Allah's apostle. Those who follow him are ruthless to the unbelievers but merciful to one another. Through them, Allah seeks to enrage the unbelievers. - 48:29

Prophet! Make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites and deal sternly with them. Hell shall be their home, evil their fate. - 66:9

The unbelievers among the People of the Book and the pagans shall burn forever in the fire of hell. They are the vilest of all creatures. - 98:51

Fight them so that Allah may punish them at your hands, and put them to shame. (verse cited in Newsweek 2/11/02)

Speak of the devil!

By the way Don, you seem to have accidentally overlooked my direct questions to you. Would you be so kind as to answer them please? I've put them in bold so you don't miss them this time.

Do you believe that in order to be a "devout Muslim" you have to kill US citizens?
Do you believe that there are Muslims out there who are "devout", yet live peaceably and abhor violence?

SJJ, you are ruining a good discussion, don't make it about Christians and mormans, they have not been killing in the name of their religion.. Make it about Muslim fundementalist extrmeists who are doing the killing in the name of the Muslim religion and how they view it. The investigation will show what group he fits into. He will either be a nut case and went out of his mind and killed for no other reason than his own anger. Or he will be proven to have killed because of his religious belief that the American soldiers were killing fellow muslims for a religious belief.

If you are successful in maintaining the Major as just a simple Muslim American then the Extremist Muslim Fundementalist win. We have to seperate them and we have to be honest about the reason.

religion is slavery,.

Quote: "SJJ, you are ruining a good discussion[/quote]

LOL! I'll have to remember that one!
I've made my point (which was essentially Jay's and Phil's point previously: guilt by association should be avoided regardless of ideology).

By the way, you didn't answer my question.

[quote]SJJ, I like the Muslims that I know but I have great disregard for those who kill innocent civillians.. The all seem to fit into a pretty consistent mold."

Who seem to fit into a pretty consistent mould?

Richard I have to disagree. Killing in the name of Christianity is at the very root of Christianity and by extension Catholicism. The entire crusades were justified as Christian killing for God all underwritten and approved of by the "church".

I too don't quite see the coeralation of McVey, Waco etc. And if this guy was a terrorist it is information not yet made public and conjecture here serves no good other than being what it is and stirring un need racial hatred.

Chuck, the guy is an American. He was born an American. His faith and heritage maybe something else but it might be said of you and your family as well. It most likly could be said of all of us. I am no advocate of PC in all cases. This, until proven otherwise, is a situation and case of someone who is mentally perplexed or worse. It remains to be seen if that is and could be a legal defense but the action clearly shows someone unbalanced and was not a typical suicidal act we most often see associated with terrorists.

I hope you guys tone this down. I'll talk and moan and "itch all day long about politics, but this terrible tragedy should not serve as fodder for hate nor conjecture. When of if proof is offered otherwise, I suggest a clamer and more open understanding and discussion.

"deranged Fort Hood gunman and his methodical mass murder plot, which survivors say began with him screaming "Allahu akbar," before he fired more than 100 rounds at his fellow soldiers."

Allahu akbar tranlated for liberals...'God is the Greatest'

I guess we can demonize Christianity because the KKK is a Christian group? What about the shooting in FLA yesterday? That guy wasnt Muslim...

[quote=don4975]
"deranged Fort Hood gunman and his methodical mass murder plot, which survivors say began with him screaming "Allahu akbar," before he fired more than 100 rounds at his fellow soldiers."

Allahu akbar tranlated for liberals...'God is the Greatest'[/quote]

Hi Don! With all due respect, you seem once again to have overlooked the questions I'd like to put to you. I wouldn't want anyone here to think you were avoiding them on purpose, so here they are again - in bold italic this time!

Yours respectfully,
Steve

Do you believe that in order to be a "devout Muslim" you have to kill US citizens?
Do you believe that there are Muslims out there who are "devout", yet live peaceably and abhor violence?

Exodus 31:15 - 'For six days work may be done, but on the seventh day there is a sabbath of complete rest, holy to the LORD; whoever does any work on the sabbath day shall surely be put to death.'

Don you willing to storm a Home Depot this Sunday, guns blazing and do the lords work?

[quote=don4975]
"deranged Fort Hood gunman and his methodical mass murder plot, which survivors say began with him screaming "Allahu akbar," before he fired more than 100 rounds at his fellow soldiers."

Allahu akbar tranlated for liberals...'God is the Greatest'[/quote]

My AP report says that was "reported" NOT attributed. Don, the facts are coming....

SJJ, as to fitting into a mold I was referring to fundementalist extremists. The ones who are fighting and killing civilians.

Chuck... Mafia would sit in mass on Sunday, and then go whack someone.....They were Roman Catholics... Murders in the USA, go see how many are Christian, and how many are not.. drug cartels in SA... Roman Catholics... murdering and dismembering bodies... prison gangs, LA gangs.... not Muslim. Yet they murder.. ODD huh?

Where is your outrage against Christianity?

The guy was a losse cannon, and there are loose cannons in all religions... I know its hard to accept that, and Christians just like to point the finger at other religions, never looking at the murder that is done by their flock.

911, you don't seem to get the difference. The mafia whacks people as a part of their business they don't go down the street killing the wife and kids shopping. It has nothing to do with a church.

These are people who kill as a policy of instiling fear and they don't care who. They have no rules or morals they just cause fear and they know very well what causes the most frear.

We should stop trying to make the comparisons because they don't fit the situation and just confuse it. We need to finish the investigation but also we need to be honest with the results. This has the real opportunity to get very political.

[quote=6863m]
911, you don't seem to get the difference. The mafia whacks people as a part of their business they don't go down the street killing the wife and kids shopping. It has nothing to do with a church.

These are people who kill as a policy of instiling fear and they don't care who. They have no rules or morals they just cause fear and they know very well what causes the most frear.

We should stop trying to make the comparisons because they don't fit the situation and just confuse it. We need to finish the investigation but also we need to be honest with the results. This has the real opportunity to get very political.[/quote]

Agreed Richard a lot of these "well looky here" are so off point as to be pointless. At the same time you appear to be saying what I suggest, that it really is too early to pass judgement. One of the early reports and contributions was that with apparently so little sniper fire power and so much damage there is a very real possibility a lot of those injured were caught in a cross fire. THAT would be interesting as well. If memory serves he took four rounds and his shooter took 2...6 hits and that was just two of the involved....

I think its far too premature to be judgeing and labeling until the experts have an opportunity to clear the air.
While he tends to "miss it" on every other account POTUS nailed this correctly in his admonition to the nation....maybe the only correct thing we might attribute him in his first months....

[quote=6863m]
SJJ, as to fitting into a mold I was referring to fundementalist extremists. The ones who are fighting and killing civilians.[/quote]

Ah! Thanks for clearing that one up.

Quote: "
We should stop trying to make the comparisons because they don't fit the situation and just confuse it."

This is where I think you are wrong. To me, all the comparisons made so far have been completely[/i] relevant to the point I - and several others here - have made:

[i]When an individual performs a heinous act in the name of his or her interpretation of an ideology, it should not be cause to attack and denigrate all interpretations of the ideology.

So - comparisions ahoy - when a Christian kills an abortion doctor in the name of his particular twisted interpretation of his religion, we should not get all uppity about all sects of Christianity, and think that they all support the killing.

Likewise, when a Muslim fundamentalist blows up him and his family to wipe out a few infidels in the name of his particular twisted interpret`tion of his religion, we should not get uppity about all sects of Islam, and think that they all support the killing.

We know it's fallacy to do the former, as we all have a good understanding of Christianity.
But Westerners commonly do the latter, as they are largely ignorant about Islam beyond the suicide bombers they see on telly.

I cannot make my point any more black and white than that. All the comparisons made so far on this thread are 100% relevant to the core point.

[quote=auctionwatch]
All the comparisons made so far on this thread are 100% relevant to the core point.[/quote]

I don't think so. But your point is what I feel and am trying also to make. Killing sprees such as in Florida, the Mafia, Latin gangs, Latin Cartels, Tim McVey are not germaine to the issue at hand. What you are suggesting is spot on. And yes I admit to not understanding Islam but I know those who believe in it and I know they are good people. I also know or believe I know that the actual terrorism is carried out by a small group of brainwashed at the behest of another small group of brainwashers. What we as Westerners have a hard time understanding is the extreme bias and utter ramdomness to victims of terrorism. There will always be the Lt. Calley and Saddam, the guy in Florida.....but the Taliban and Alqaeda acts around the world on their face seem totally insane and random; done in the name of Allah makes it very difficult to be tolerant and understanding to others who endorse the same religion. Small but important point for me anyway.

SJJ, you are usually rather astute, but you manage to get this wrong every time.....you said

"a need for a boogyman now that the Commies have gone away"... WRONG!!!! not only have they NOT gone away...they are in command of our Gov't and armed forces...not to mention infested this forum just short of Biblical proportions.........
...........please try to do better in the future....tia

[quote=wyatt]
"a need for a boogyman now that the Commies have gone away"... WRONG!!!! not only have they NOT gone away...they are in command of our Gov't and armed forces...not to mention infested this forum just short of Biblical proportions.........
...........please try to do better in the future....tia[/quote]

Haha! As I was typing it I realised I was leaving a door open to a comment like that... please try to be less predictable in the future!

I'm programed........

...btw my aunt was Lebanese, a beauty in her day and was loved by the whole family.....we have/had an eclectic mix including a Jew, a Greek (an AMAZING wedding in Detroit)...Injuns, almost an eyetalian from Florenza but my daughter dumped him cuz he was losing his hair, and a lot a pasty white people too......even a father in law with orange hair, they used to call him red...I think he shoulda been called Orange......?????.....

I thought commies took over the "Green" movement.:S

SJJ
Likewise its a better idea to keep both your doors and drawers closed....the alternative will likly spawn in either case certain remarks....:I3:

[quote=6863m]
SJJ, you are ruining a good discussion, don't make it about Christians and mormans, they have not been killing in the name of their religion.. Make it about Muslim fundementalist extrmeists who are doing the killing in the name of the Muslim religion and how they view it. The investigation will show what group he fits into. He will either be a nut case and went out of his mind and killed for no other reason than his own anger. Or he will be proven to have killed because of his religious belief that the American soldiers were killing fellow muslims for a religious belief.

If you are successful in maintaining the Major as just a simple Muslim American then the Extremist Muslim Fundementalist win. We have to seperate them and we have to be honest about the reason.[/quote]

Speaking to troops who will soon be going to Iraq, Bush said: “I believe there’s an Almighty, and I believe a gift of that Almighty to every man, woman, an child on the face of the Earth is freedom.”

Implying that he is doing God’s will, he said, “It’s in our national interest to help others realize the blessings of a free society.”

he then went on to kill hundreds of thousands of Iraqi's

murder has been comitted. Hence the person who comitted the act is a murderer. The colour of his underwear, the imaginary invisible friend he likes best, the car he drives, the food he eats............all have no relevance to the dead, so why such relevance to the living - even it if did turn out he was a fundamentalist terrorist, whay you going to do about it - ban terrorists - oh, hang on, we tried that by blootering thier countries and it didn't seem to work so well. Time and time again we make bigger things out of murder, but it is just that, a terrible criminal act. Equally pointless to ban religion, whtever persuasion. Filling the hole left behind is understandable when there is no living person to hate, filling with a pile of religious BS might make some folks feel better/more angry about it, but murder is always the same - results in folks being dead, and living folks having to carry that with them for ever.

Yes, my family has experienced a close member being murdered, and before anyone asks, we were not interested in the murderers, thier attitudes, beliefs or anything. We cared for the man who was dead.

watch out for rifle totting radical nuns

[quote=tarboy71]
watch out for rifle totting radical nuns[/quote]

NOBODY expects the rifle-toting nuns!

[quote=6863m]
911, you don't seem to get the difference. The mafia whacks people as a part of their business they don't go down the street killing the wife and kids shopping. It has nothing to do with a church.

These are people who kill as a policy of instiling fear and they don't care who. They have no rules or morals they just cause fear and they know very well what causes the most frear.

We should stop trying to make the comparisons because they don't fit the situation and just confuse it. We need to finish the investigation but also we need to be honest with the results. This has the real opportunity to get very political.[/quote]

Richard what about the Christian KKK whos job it was to terrorize many out side their Christian beliefs.... You seem to forget that there are crazies in all religions not just in Islam... So getting back to the mafia, they were christ lovers, yet calculated murderers..

Do you think this guys shooting spree was related to his church? Killing is wrong in all religions, the mafia was an example of people immersed in faith, yet being capable of pure evil as well... I guess you missed that. Not surprising.

Someone is a little islamophobic...

http://www.religioustolerance.org/abo_viol.htm

Anti Abortion groups... Christians... Bombings? Murders? All for their religion? Say it aint so...

The "killing season" in Canada and northern New York state:
During the 1990s. late October and early November were referred to as the "killing season" by some abortion-rights advocates. Abortion providers in northern New York state and Canada were attacked on five of the six years from 1994 to 1998:

1994-NOV-8: Dr. Garson Romalis of Vancouver BC was shot in the leg.
1995-NOV-10: Dr. Hugh Short of Ancaster ON (Near Hamilton) was shot in the elbow.
1996: No shootings occurred.
1997-OCT-28: A physician in Rochester NY received minor shrapnel wounds.
1997-NOV-11: Dr Jack Fainman of Winnipeg MN was shot in the shoulder.
1998-OCT-23: Dr Barnett Slepian from Amherst NY (near Buffalo) was murdered, although the perpetrator claimed that he only wanted to wound the doctor.

All five were shot through a glass window or door at their homes.

Tomorrow, I will take an oath and deliver an inaugural address. You'll be pleased to hear I'm not going to deliver it twice. But I will speak about freedom. This is the cause that unites our country and gives hope to the world and will lead us to a future of peace. [size=x-large]We have a calling from beyond the stars to stand for freedom[/size], and America will always be faithful to that cause.

Another!!!!

Bush: God told me to invade Iraq

President 'revealed reasons for war in private meeting'

By Rupert Cornwell in Washington

President George Bush has claimed he was told by God to invade Iraq and attack Osama bin Laden's stronghold of Afghanistan as part of a divine mission to bring peace to the Middle East, security for Israel, and a state for the Palestinians.

The President made the assertion during his first meeting with Palestinian leaders in June 2003, according to a BBC series which will be broadcast this month.

The revelation comes after Mr Bush launched an impassioned attack yesterday in Washington on Islamic militants, likening their ideology to that of Communism, and accusing them of seeking to "enslave whole nations" and set up a radical Islamic empire "that spans from Spain to Indonesia". In the programmeElusive Peace: Israel and the Arabs, which starts on Monday, the former Palestinian foreign minister Nabil Shaath says Mr Bush told him and Mahmoud Abbas, former prime minister and now Palestinian President: "I'm driven with a mission from God. God would tell me, 'George, go and fight those terrorists in Afghanistan.' And I did, and then God would tell me, 'George go and end the tyranny in Iraq,' and I did."

And "now again", Mr Bush is quoted as telling the two, "I feel God's words coming to me: 'Go get the Palestinians their state and get the Israelis their security, and get peace in the Middle East.' And by God, I'm gonna do it."

Mr Abbas remembers how the US President told him he had a "moral and religious obligation" to act. The White House has refused to comment on what it terms a private conversation. But the BBC account is anything but implausible, given how throughout his presidency Mr Bush, a born-again Christian, has never hidden the importance of his faith.

From the outset he has couched the "global war on terror" in quasi-religious terms, as a struggle between good and evil. Al-Qa'ida terrorists are routinely described as evil-doers. For Mr Bush, the invasion of Iraq has always been part of the struggle against terrorism, and he appears to see himself as the executor of the divine will.

He told Bob Woodward - whose 2004 book, Plan of Attack, is the definitive account of the administration's road to war in Iraq - that after giving the order to invade in March 2003, he walked in the White House garden, praying "that our troops be safe, be protected by the Almighty". As he went into this critical period, he told Mr Woodward, "I was praying for strength to do the Lord's will.

"I'm surely not going to justify war based upon God. Understand that. Nevertheless, in my case, I pray that I will be as good a messenger of His will as possible. And then of course, I pray for forgiveness."

Another telling sign of Mr Bush's religion was his answer to Mr Woodward's question on whether he had asked his father - the former president who refused to launch a full-scale invasion of Iraq after driving Saddam Hussein from Kuwait in 1991 - for advice on what to do.

The current President replied that his earthly father was "the wrong father to appeal to for advice ... there is a higher father that I appeal to".

The same sense of mission permeated his speech at the National Endowment of Democracy yesterday. Its main news was Mr Bush's claim that Western security services had thwarted 10 planned attacks by al-Qa'ida since 11 September 2001, three of them against mainland US.

More striking though was his unrelenting portrayal of radical Islam as a global menace, which only the forces of freedom - led by the US - could repel. It was delivered at a moment when Mr Bush's domestic approval ratings are at their lowest ebb, in large part because of the war in Iraq, in which 1,950 US troops have died, with no end in sight.

It came amid continuing violence on the ground, nine days before the critical referendum on the new constitution that offers perhaps the last chance of securing a unitary and democratic Iraq. "The militants believe that controlling one country will rally the Muslim masses, enabling them to overthrow all moderate governments in the region" and set up a radical empire stretching from Spain to Indonesia, he said.

The insurgents' aim was to "enslave whole nations and intimidate the world". He portrayed Islamic radicals as a single global movement, from the Middle East to Chechnya and Bali and the jungles of the Philippines.

He rejected claims that the US military presence in Iraq was fuelling terrorism: 11 September 2001 occurred long before American troops set foot in Iraq - and Russia's opposition to the invasion did not stop terrorists carrying out the Beslan atrocity in which 300 children died.

Mr Bush also accused Syria and Iran of supporting radical groups. They "have a long history of collaboration with terrorists and they deserve no patience". The US, he warned, "makes no distinction between those who commit acts of terror and those who support and harbour them because they're equally as guilty of murder".

"Wars are not won without sacrifice and this war will require more sacrifice, more time and more resolve," Mr Bush declared. But progress was being made in Iraq, and, he proclaimed: "We will keep our nerve and we will win that victory."

Richard.. Bush got his calling from God to invade, if you like I can pull his State of the Unions where he made mention of his new crusade, and his calling from a higher father..

If that isnt invoking religion to kill muslims, than I dont know what is..

Is Bush a Christofacist?

The shooting is nothing but sad.

What is oddest to me is this person had been in the army for years. He's a major because he's a doctor. Don't get court marshalled and you pretty much become a major quickly.

Mental health issues often end in tragically.

[quote="911 Truth"]
Richard.. Bush got his calling from God to invade, if you like I can pull his State of the Unions where he made mention of his new crusade, and his calling from a higher father..

If that isnt invoking religion to kill muslims, than I dont know what is..

Is Bush a Christofacist?[/quote]

Even they guys who said Bush said that says it was metaphorical. Surprising, you are full of crap again...

http://en.wikinews.org/wiki/White_House_denies_that_God_told_Bush_to_invade_Iraq

[quote=TKMad]
[quote="911 Truth"]
Richard.. Bush got his calling from God to invade, if you like I can pull his State of the Unions where he made mention of his new crusade, and his calling from a higher father..

If that isnt invoking religion to kill muslims, than I dont know what is..

Is Bush a Christofacist?[/quote]

Even they guys who said Bush said that says it was metaphorical. Surprising, you are full of crap again...

http://en.wikinews.org/wiki/White_House_denies_that_God_told_Bush_to_invade_Iraq[/quote]

Wiki... anything better than this? Oh so when a Christian invokes his god its Metaphorical.. OK.. Gotcha.

"I trust God speaks through me; without that I couldn't do my job."
-- George W. Bush, July 9, 2004.

"I pray that I will be as good a messenger of His will as possible
I felt so strongly that [invading Iraq] was the right thing to do."
-- George W. Bush

I would hope we wouldn't have to do it militarily, but we have a duty
Going into this period, I was praying for strength to do the Lord's will "
-- George W. Bush in an interview with Bob Woodward.

One of the delegates, Nabil Shaath, who was Palestinian foreign minister at the time, said: "President Bush said to all of us: 'I am driven with a mission from God'. God would tell me, 'George go and fight these terrorists in Afghanistan'. And I did. And then God would tell me 'George, go and end the tyranny in Iraq'. And I did."

"The liberty we prize is not America´s gift to the world, it is God´s gift to humanity" (State of the Union, January 29, 2003).

Need more? Are you still in denial?

[quote=TKMad]
[quote="911 Truth"]
Richard.. Bush got his calling from God to invade, if you like I can pull his State of the Unions where he made mention of his new crusade, and his calling from a higher father..

If that isnt invoking religion to kill muslims, than I dont know what is..

Is Bush a Christofacist?[/quote]

Even they guys who said Bush said that says it was metaphorical. Surprising, you are full of crap again...

http://en.wikinews.org/wiki/White_House_denies_that_God_told_Bush_to_invade_Iraq[/quote]

Full of crap? who exactly is the higher father he invoked suring his SOTU? GHWB on speed? Who?

[quote=TKMad]
[quote="911 Truth"]
Richard.. Bush got his calling from God to invade, if you like I can pull his State of the Unions where he made mention of his new crusade, and his calling from a higher father..

If that isnt invoking religion to kill muslims, than I dont know what is..

Is Bush a Christofacist?[/quote]

Even they guys who said Bush said that says it was metaphorical. Surprising, you are full of crap again...

http://en.wikinews.org/wiki/White_House_denies_that_God_told_Bush_to_invade_Iraq[/quote]

another does of daily apology, hold the cream

The course of this conflict is not known, yet its outcome is certain. Freedom and fear, justice and cruelty, have always been at war, and we know that God is not neutral between them.
-- George W Bush, in other words, God is on our side

God told me to strike at al Qaida and I struck them, and then he instructed me to strike at Saddam, which I did, and now I am determined to solve the problem in the Middle East. If you help me I will act, and if not, the elections will come and I will have to focus on them.
-- George W Bush

This is a new kind of, a new kind of evil. And the American people are beginning to understand. This crusade, this war on terrorism, is going to take a while. And American people must be patient.
-- Stoking the anxieties of Muslims worldwide, who don't exactly associate good things with the word "crusade".

Oh, ok, so he said 'similar' things. I get you. If it isn't exactly what he said just make up whatever you like. Good plan.

[quote=TKMad]
Oh, ok, so he said 'similar' things. I get you. If it isn't exactly what he said just make up whatever you like. Good plan.[/quote]

TK nothing was made up, these are actual qoutes he made. He invoked his religion to justify these wars.. If a muslim did this they would be considered extremists. I am sure you can find his state of the unions and read them yourself. I did not make this up. Bush said it. Admit it, you were shown facts you didnt know, and were surprised by them, it happens.

TKMad......tell 911 you weren't surprised you were.... "shock and awed".....

Wyatt was your aunt arab or christian? Most Lebanese don't claim to be arab but some hybrid...forget the name.

she was a Christian and Lebanese...with a Arab maiden name which I can't remember now...I assumed all Lebanese whether Christian or Muslim were Arab. To my mind as I remember her, she looked like Paula Abdul but with a bit bigger nose and great big lips covered in red lipstick.

Actually I've heard many people say that God is a big influence in their lives. That is very different than saying "God told me to..." You were deliberately misleading, like most of your posts.

[quote=TKMad]
Actually I've heard many people say that God is a big influence in their lives. That is very different than saying "God told me to..." You were deliberately misleading, like most of your posts.[/quote]

TK, its obvious you can not read.. I did not say or write these quotes... George Bush did. I did not pen his state of the unions, I did not pen his interviews...

Deliberately misleading by presenting facts? Yeah, your just an apologist.. I get it.. Unable to grasp facts.. yes facts. you can look up the quotes, if your incapable to do so, ask and I can provide links to the SOTUs and his other mentioning of God in regards to militarty actions in Iraq/Afghanistan...

[size=x-large][color=#FF0000]God told me to strike[/color][/b][/size] at al Qaida and I struck them, and then he instructed me to strike at Saddam, which I did, and now I am determined to solve the problem in the Middle East. If you help me I will act, and if not, the elections will come and I will have to focus on them.
[size=x-large][b]-- George W Bush[/size]

Get it?

I'm not a religious man, so some things about religion confuse me. For example, when someone donates to charity because God told him to, everyone applauds, good for him. When another person kills a bunch of people in a mass murder because God told him to, he's put in a rubber room in a straight jacket, or sent to prison or the death chamber. In both cases the source was the same, just the outcomes were different. And in both cases, it is impossible to prove either one heard the voice of God.

I hope I didn't open a huge can of worms with that one...:S

TK, then there is the Pentagon using Biblical scripture on battle plans... Now what if AlCIAduh did this... yeah we know... Muslim Extremists...

Under Rumsfeld, Pentagon published Bible verses on top-secret intel reports.
In a lengthy article on Donald Rumsfeld’s rocky tenure as Defense Secretary, GQ published never-before-seen cover sheets from top-secret intelligence briefings produced by Rumsfeld’s Pentagon. Starting in the days surrounding the U.S. invasion of Iraq, the cover sheets featured inspirational Bible verses printed over military images, “and were delivered by Rumsfeld himself to the White House” to the president, “who referred to America’s war on terror as a ‘crusade,’” GQ writes. Below are some examples of the Bible quotes (view the images here):

“Therefore put on the full armor of God, so that when the day of evil comes, you may be able to stand your ground, and after you have done everything, to stand.” [The quote appears over an image of a tank at sunrise]

“Commit to the LORD whatever you do, and your plans will succeed.” [The quote appears over an image of a soldier in Baghdad]

“It is God’s will that by doing good you should silence the ignorant talk of foolish men.” [The quote appears over an image of Saddam Hussein]

“Open the gates that the righteous nation may enter, The nation that keeps faith.” [The quote appears over an image of tanks entering an Iraqi city]

GQ’s Robert Draper writes that when colleagues complained to the Pentagon official who came up with the cover sheets, he replied, “‘my seniors’ — JCS chairman Richard Myers, Rumsfeld, and the commander in chief himself – appreciated the cover pages.”

As an atheist, those quotes are still inspirational, yet they are also generic. God and lord can be interchanged with allah, buddah or any number of deity's. Many bible quotes used for inspiration within the ranks are purposefully lifted so that they can be vague as to which deity you desire to pray to. Just because a quote says god, lord, him, doesn't necessarily mean the christian god.

[quote=InfantryYJ]
As an atheist, those quotes are still inspirational, yet they are also generic. God and lord can be interchanged with allah, buddah or any number of deity's. Many bible quotes used for inspiration within the ranks are purposefully lifted so that they can be vague as to which deity you desire to pray to. Just because a quote says god, lord, him, doesn't necessarily mean the christian god.[/quote]

Really, when they are taken from the Christian bible? Those quotes dont appear in the Qu'ran or Hindu texts do they?

If they can be interchanged, then why do the Christians get upset when the Muslims mention their lord, their god?

Matters not where they came from. The document coversheets didn't specify where they came from, and even if they did, it's attributing it to an author/source, just as any other, so, if you were a Hindu, you could quite possibly think they were talking about cows, if you were an ancient Greek, you could quite possibly think they were talking about Zeus and if you were muslim, you could quite possibly think they are talking about allah.

Just as you can go to the torah, koran or the bible and pick a generic quote, it can be attributed to any religion, but I really see as this is a waste of time as no matter what is said, because it was done during xxx's presidency, it was wrong.

GUD GAAWD ....GREAT LAWD A-MIGHTY....JUMP BACK JACK....SEE YA LATTA ALIGATA I don't know if those are in the bible either...but they shore is insparational....

[quote="John Hamilton"]
I'm not a religious man, so some things about religion confuse me. For example, when someone donates to charity because God told him to, everyone applauds, good for him. When another person kills a bunch of people in a mass murder because God told him to, he's put in a rubber room in a straight jacket, or sent to prison or the death chamber. In both cases the source was the same, just the outcomes were different. And in both cases, it is impossible to prove either one heard the voice of God.[/quote]

No worms here; I find stuff like this fascinating.

I posted a while back on my thoughts about charity. Personally I think it means the most when you aren't doing it for status, recognition, ego, tax breaks, to assuage guilt or to get some more points on the manna meter for the eternal pat on the head and divine doggy biscuit in the afterlife of your chosen Brand of Supreme Being. To me, the ultimate charity is giving anonymously, from the heart, because you yourself[/i] want to do it; not because someone tells you and/or sees you doing so (including God). The same goes for [i]any good act.

Some people argue that without religion, we'd have a complete moral breakdown in society, but I think that kind of thinking does a gross disservice to believers. It's essentially saying that the only reason theists don't go round killing and raping others is because God tells them not to, which I don't buy for a second. I like to believe that theists and non-theists alike are capable of acting altruistically - including giving to charity - without first thinking of how they'd look in the eyes of others - or of St. Peter's tally against their name.

It is indeed impossible to say for sure whether the suicide bomber heard the word of God or not. The fundamentalist Christian would likely say he definitely couldn't have done, as there is only one true God and He gave up encouraging mass murder several thousand years ago. The belief in one true God makes fundamentalist Christians strong atheists with respect to any other incarnation of a Supreme Being, which I find to be a nice little irony.

The radical fundamentalist Muslim, however, would likely say the mass murderer certainly heard the word of God, as when read literally (as opposed to being read in historical context as more conventional Muslims would), the Qu'aran sanctions and indeed encourages such appalling acts of destruction.

Throughout all this, our respective justice systems, both derived from Anglo-Saxon Common Law, largely keep God out in the cold except in ceremonial ways. "God told me to do it" would not be an acceptable defence for the mass-murdering Islamist.

Insanity, however, might be.

[quote=InfantryYJ]
Matters not where they came from. The document coversheets didn't specify where they came from, and even if they did, it's attributing it to an author/source, just as any other, so, if you were a Hindu, you could quite possibly think they were talking about cows, if you were an ancient Greek, you could quite possibly think they were talking about Zeus and if you were muslim, you could quite possibly think they are talking about allah.

Just as you can go to the torah, koran or the bible and pick a generic quote, it can be attributed to any religion, but I really see as this is a waste of time as no matter what is said, because it was done during xxx's presidency, it was wrong.[/quote]

Wrong.. they are attributed to the Christian Bible, Chapter and Verse.. no mention of generic Gods.. Christian Bible Chapter and Verse.. Certainly a Muslim, or Hindu or ancient Greek would not attribute these quotes to their dogma.

http://news.aol.com/article/pentagon-briefings-carried-bible-verses/487977

Battle plans to invade/occupy Muslim lands using Bible quotes, its inflammatory no matter who the president is.

[quote="911 Truth"]
[quote=InfantryYJ]
Matters not where they came from. The document coversheets didn't specify where they came from, and even if they did, it's attributing it to an author/source, just as any other, so, if you were a Hindu, you could quite possibly think they were talking about cows, if you were an ancient Greek, you could quite possibly think they were talking about Zeus and if you were muslim, you could quite possibly think they are talking about allah.

Just as you can go to the torah, koran or the bible and pick a generic quote, it can be attributed to any religion, but I really see as this is a waste of time as no matter what is said, because it was done during xxx's presidency, it was wrong.[/quote]

Wrong.. they are attributed to the Christian Bible, Chapter and Verse.. no mention of generic Gods.. Christian Bible Chapter and Verse.. Certainly a Muslim, or Hindu or ancient Greek would not attribute these quotes to their dogma.

http://news.aol.com/article/pentagon-briefings-carried-bible-verses/487977

Battle plans to invade/occupy Muslim lands using Bible quotes, its inflammatory no matter who the president is.[/quote]

I didn't say they mentioned generic gods, but you can interchange the religion with the gods that are quoted and it could have come from any "holy" book.

do you really have a point in this really? They were using "generic" quotes, lord, god, him, all really mean nothing to anyone and everything to some. Him could be Mohammed, Lord could be Allah, God could even be Satan, all of those descriptive words are interchangeable, whether they came from the bible or not.

Do you know that within the military channels, any religious thing to be done publicly, must be generic in nature? Chaplains, when saying public prayers (not their respective church gatherings), must keep their prayers generic. They cannot say "in Jesus name" or anything of that nature, they can, quote source, such as these cover sheets that you seem to be whining about, though.

Jeesh, never thought, as an atheist, that I'd be pimping the rights of the religious.

[quote=InfantryYJ]
[quote="911 Truth"]
[quote=InfantryYJ]
Matters not where they came from. The document coversheets didn't specify where they came from, and even if they did, it's attributing it to an author/source, just as any other, so, if you were a Hindu, you could quite possibly think they were talking about cows, if you were an ancient Greek, you could quite possibly think they were talking about Zeus and if you were muslim, you could quite possibly think they are talking about allah.

Just as you can go to the torah, koran or the bible and pick a generic quote, it can be attributed to any religion, but I really see as this is a waste of time as no matter what is said, because it was done during xxx's presidency, it was wrong.[/quote]

Wrong.. they are attributed to the Christian Bible, Chapter and Verse.. no mention of generic Gods.. Christian Bible Chapter and Verse.. Certainly a Muslim, or Hindu or ancient Greek would not attribute these quotes to their dogma.

http://news.aol.com/article/pentagon-briefings-carried-bible-verses/487977

Battle plans to invade/occupy Muslim lands using Bible quotes, its inflammatory no matter who the president is.[/quote]

I didn't say they mentioned generic gods, but you can interchange the religion with the gods that are quoted and it could have come from any "holy" book.

do you really have a point in this really? They were using "generic" quotes, lord, god, him, all really mean nothing to anyone and everything to some. Him could be Mohammed, Lord could be Allah, God could even be Satan, all of those descriptive words are interchangeable, whether they came from the bible or not.

Do you know that within the military channels, any religious thing to be done publicly, must be generic in nature? Chaplains, when saying public prayers (not their respective church gatherings), must keep their prayers generic. They cannot say "in Jesus name" or anything of that nature, they can, quote source, such as these cover sheets that you seem to be whining about, though.

Jeesh, never thought, as an atheist, that I'd be pimping the rights of the religious.[/quote]

So I guess what your saying is that when Osama says Lord willing we will destroy the infadel he is invoking Jesus? Or when the media pumps out the 457th #2 Al CIAduh operative, and this guy is saying praise be to god, it can be interpreted as Zeus? Or Jesus? Or Buddah?

The fact is these quotes are directly from the Christian Bible and are justly attributed as such. These quotes are directly from the Christian scripture, not any other holy book, or any god that lived in ancient Greece, Egypt or in any other believers head.

Direct quotings, which book???

"His is the kingdom of the heavens and the earth. He ordains life and death and has power over all things."

"He is the first and the last, the visible and the unseen. He has knowledge of all things."

"He created the heavens and the earth in six days and then mounted His throne. He knows all that goes into the earth and all that emerges from it, all that comes down from heaven and all that ascends to it. He is with you wherever you are. He is cognizant of all your actions."

"His is the kingdom of the heavens and the earth. To Him shall all things return. He causes the night to pass into the day and the day into the night. He has knowledge of the inmost thoughts of men."

Can the above quoting be attributed to any number of "holy" books? Oh, that was a quick search, just imagine if I searched for something that was "war inspirational" from whichever holy book, but in generic deity phrases.

You seem to be missing the entire point when it comes to the way religion is handled within DoD, the public phraseology must be generic, but within that, the quote must be attributed to the author. Had those quotes been from the Koran, you wouldn't be whining about them, had they been from the Torah, you wouldn't be whining about them, had they been from any other book, other than the bible, you wouldn't be whining about them.

[quote=InfantryYJ]
Direct quotings, which book???

"His is the kingdom of the heavens and the earth. He ordains life and death and has power over all things."

"He is the first and the last, the visible and the unseen. He has knowledge of all things."

"He created the heavens and the earth in six days and then mounted His throne. He knows all that goes into the earth and all that emerges from it, all that comes down from heaven and all that ascends to it. He is with you wherever you are. He is cognizant of all your actions."

"His is the kingdom of the heavens and the earth. To Him shall all things return. He causes the night to pass into the day and the day into the night. He has knowledge of the inmost thoughts of men."

Can the above quoting be attributed to any number of "holy" books? Oh, that was a quick search, just imagine if I searched for something that was "war inspirational" from whichever holy book, but in generic deity phrases.

You seem to be missing the entire point when it comes to the way religion is handled within DoD, the public phraseology must be generic, but within that, the quote must be attributed to the author. Had those quotes been from the Koran, you wouldn't be whining about them, had they been from the Torah, you wouldn't be whining about them, had they been from any other book, other than the bible, you wouldn't be whining about them.[/quote]

Ummm, I guess you overlooked this link, which shows the quotes, and the passage on the DOD plans....

http://news.aol.com/article/pentagon-briefings-carried-bible-verses/487977

or here:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1184546/Donald-Rumsfelds-holy-war-How-President-Bushs-Iraq-briefings-came-quotes-Bible.html

Phrasing must be generic? Looks like they didnt make it generic afterall...

need more links to the pictures of the plans with the bible chapter and verse?

http://blog.puppetgov.com/2009/05/19/bible-quotes-adorned-covers-of-top-secret-rumsfeld-intelligence-reports/

How about that... the meat of this thread was how muslims use their religion for war etc.. I was just showing, and I clearly showed this, that Christians do the exact same.. When we talk about muslims using religion for killing, we do the same. Yet we dont consider that extreme, only if they do it.. thats the point.

[quote=InfantryYJ]
Direct quotings, which book???

"His is the kingdom of the heavens and the earth. He ordains life and death and has power over all things."

"He is the first and the last, the visible and the unseen. He has knowledge of all things."

"He created the heavens and the earth in six days and then mounted His throne. He knows all that goes into the earth and all that emerges from it, all that comes down from heaven and all that ascends to it. He is with you wherever you are. He is cognizant of all your actions."

"His is the kingdom of the heavens and the earth. To Him shall all things return. He causes the night to pass into the day and the day into the night. He has knowledge of the inmost thoughts of men."

Can the above quoting be attributed to any number of "holy" books? Oh, that was a quick search, just imagine if I searched for something that was "war inspirational" from whichever holy book, but in generic deity phrases.

You seem to be missing the entire point when it comes to the way religion is handled within DoD, the public phraseology must be generic, but within that, the quote must be attributed to the author. Had those quotes been from the Koran, you wouldn't be whining about them, had they been from the Torah, you wouldn't be whining about them, had they been from any other book, other than the bible, you wouldn't be whining about them.[/quote]

The major flaw in your argument is that in fact the quotes were attributed to the Christian Bible...

SJJ, I thought your ultimate act of charity was the power of the vote to do good........or imprison the MFr cuz he won't cooperate in your altrusim.

[quote="911 Truth"]
[quote=InfantryYJ]
Direct quotings, which book???

"His is the kingdom of the heavens and the earth. He ordains life and death and has power over all things."

"He is the first and the last, the visible and the unseen. He has knowledge of all things."

"He created the heavens and the earth in six days and then mounted His throne. He knows all that goes into the earth and all that emerges from it, all that comes down from heaven and all that ascends to it. He is with you wherever you are. He is cognizant of all your actions."

"His is the kingdom of the heavens and the earth. To Him shall all things return. He causes the night to pass into the day and the day into the night. He has knowledge of the inmost thoughts of men."

Can the above quoting be attributed to any number of "holy" books? Oh, that was a quick search, just imagine if I searched for something that was "war inspirational" from whichever holy book, but in generic deity phrases.

You seem to be missing the entire point when it comes to the way religion is handled within DoD, the public phraseology must be generic, but within that, the quote must be attributed to the author. Had those quotes been from the Koran, you wouldn't be whining about them, had they been from the Torah, you wouldn't be whining about them, had they been from any other book, other than the bible, you wouldn't be whining about them.[/quote]

Ummm, I guess you overlooked this link, which shows the quotes, and the passage on the DOD plans....

http://news.aol.com/article/pentagon-briefings-carried-bible-verses/487977

or here:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1184546/Donald-Rumsfelds-holy-war-How-President-Bushs-Iraq-briefings-came-quotes-Bible.html

Phrasing must be generic? Looks like they didnt make it generic afterall...

need more links to the pictures of the plans with the bible chapter and verse?[/quote]

Please, please tell me that either you just can't read, or you're just too dense to understand what "generic" means. In all of those pics, not once is it mentioned that it is a christian god. In all of those pictures, the deity could be the deity of your choice. In all of those pictures, the source of the quote is noted, as with any quote from anyone.

Quote: "The major flaw in your argument is that in fact the quotes were attributed to the Christian Bible..."

No, the major flaw is that people like you that only choose to bash one religion over another. As I have said, had the quote come directly out of the Torah, Koran, or the Bhagawat Geeta, you wouldn't be whining about where they came from, it would not have made any headlines anywhere.

do I agree that the bible has some warring quotations, yep, just as with every other holy book available, but, in this modern time, do I agree that the radical christians are out to kill all the non christians, nope, but the radical muslims are. Does that make one religion better than the other, nope, not in my eyes, I think they are equally dangerous in the wrong hands.

[quote=InfantryYJ]
[quote="911 Truth"]
[quote=InfantryYJ]
Direct quotings, which book???

"His is the kingdom of the heavens and the earth. He ordains life and death and has power over all things."

"He is the first and the last, the visible and the unseen. He has knowledge of all things."

"He created the heavens and the earth in six days and then mounted His throne. He knows all that goes into the earth and all that emerges from it, all that comes down from heaven and all that ascends to it. He is with you wherever you are. He is cognizant of all your actions."

"His is the kingdom of the heavens and the earth. To Him shall all things return. He causes the night to pass into the day and the day into the night. He has knowledge of the inmost thoughts of men."

Can the above quoting be attributed to any number of "holy" books? Oh, that was a quick search, just imagine if I searched for something that was "war inspirational" from whichever holy book, but in generic deity phrases.

You seem to be missing the entire point when it comes to the way religion is handled within DoD, the public phraseology must be generic, but within that, the quote must be attributed to the author. Had those quotes been from the Koran, you wouldn't be whining about them, had they been from the Torah, you wouldn't be whining about them, had they been from any other book, other than the bible, you wouldn't be whining about them.[/quote]

Ummm, I guess you overlooked this link, which shows the quotes, and the passage on the DOD plans....

http://news.aol.com/article/pentagon-briefings-carried-bible-verses/487977

or here:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1184546/Donald-Rumsfelds-holy-war-How-President-Bushs-Iraq-briefings-came-quotes-Bible.html

Phrasing must be generic? Looks like they didnt make it generic afterall...

need more links to the pictures of the plans with the bible chapter and verse?[/quote]

Please, please tell me that either you just can't read, or you're just too dense to understand what "generic" means. In all of those pics, not once is it mentioned that it is a christian god. In all of those pictures, the deity could be the deity of your choice. In all of those pictures, the source of the quote is noted, as with any quote from anyone.

Quote: "The major flaw in your argument is that in fact the quotes were attributed to the Christian Bible...[/quote]

No, the major flaw is that people like you that only choose to bash one religion over another. As I have said, had the quote come directly out of the Torah, Koran, or the Bhagawat Geeta, you wouldn't be whining about where they came from, it would not have made any headlines anywhere.

do I agree that the bible has some warring quotations, yep, just as with every other holy book available, but, in this modern time, do I agree that the radical christians are out to kill all the non christians, nope, but the radical muslims are. Does that make one religion better than the other, nope, not in my eyes, I think they are equally dangerous in the wrong hands."

You may need to open the links again... the BIBLE chapter and verse are quoted.. .look again. Then come back and apologize.

I am not bashing one religion over the other.. I am clearly pointing out the hypocrisy.

Radical Christians do kill.... abortion doctors, what about the KKK, they are Christian killers who kill anyone they dont like, black, jew, roman catholic, gay. etc. etc.

[size=x-large][/size][size=medium][size=medium][/size][quote=InfantryYJ]
[quote="911 Truth"]
[quote=InfantryYJ]
[size=large]Please, please tell me that either you just can't read, or you're just too dense to understand what "generic" means. In all of those pics, not once is it mentioned that it is a christian god. In all of those pictures, the deity could be the deity of your choice. In all of those pictures, the source of the quote is noted, as with any quote from anyone.

[quote]

So your saying that a muslim seeing Christian biblical quotes can think of Allah? Really? a Buddist would see Biblical scripture and apply it to his religion?[/[/size]size]

[quote="911 Truth"]

You may need to open the links again... the BIBLE chapter and verse are quoted.. .look again. Then come back and apologize.

I am not bashing one religion over the other.. I am clearly pointing out the hypocrisy.

Radical Christians do kill.... abortion doctors, what about the KKK, they are Christian killers who kill anyone they dont like, black, jew, roman catholic, gay. etc. etc.[/quote]

I'm afraid you are missing the entire point, I'm going to type this real slow so maybe you can understand:

As I've stated, the quote itself is generic, and when quoting a quote, you will also list the source. It just so happens that this source is from the christian bible, but the quote could have come from any holy book, are you to blind to see that? Can you not understand that the quote itself is a generic quote? Are you too dense to see that "Commit to the lord whatever you do, and your plans will succeed" can be interchanged with any religious faction? God, lord, him, he can all be interchanged amongst various religions, they are generic terms.

[quote=InfantryYJ]
[quote="911 Truth"]

You may need to open the links again... the BIBLE chapter and verse are quoted.. .look again. Then come back and apologize.

I am not bashing one religion over the other.. I am clearly pointing out the hypocrisy.

Radical Christians do kill.... abortion doctors, what about the KKK, they are Christian killers who kill anyone they dont like, black, jew, roman catholic, gay. etc. etc.[/quote]

I'm afraid you are missing the entire point, I'm going to type this real slow so maybe you can understand:

As I've stated, the quote itself is generic, and when quoting a quote, you will also list the source. It just so happens that this source is from the christian bible, but the quote could have come from any holy book, are you to blind to see that? Can you not understand that the quote itself is a generic quote? Are you too dense to see that "Commit to the lord whatever you do, and your plans will succeed" can be interchanged with any religious faction? God, lord, him, he can all be interchanged amongst various religions, they are generic terms.[/quote]

Thanks, that slow typing really helped... your missing the point. The point is when a muslim would use a phrase like the ones the Pentagon used, and put it on battle plans, and footnoted it as a quote from the Quran, the Christian west would point to that and say.. .look how extreme they are. Thats the point I think your missing. Say Iran had battle plans and had qoutes from the Quran on it... what would the Christians in this country think? That they are invoking Jesus, or that Islam is an extremist religion.. I think you know the answer.

I know God, Lord etc are generic terms, but when you apply them using a certain religious dogma they become that religion.. When and if you read the Quran, do you think of Jesus when it mentions Lord or God?

Where the problem lies is that when we quote, we quote in generic terms, when they quote, they quote in their specific religion, for the most part.

a direct quote from the bible, with source listed is a generic quote?

[quote=InfantryYJ]
Where the problem lies is that when we quote, we quote in generic terms, when they quote, they quote in their specific religion, for the most part.[/quote]

I think quoting and attributing to a verse in the bible is really not quoting in generic terms, that is singling out 1 holy book for 1 religion, not all encompassing... but anyway, thanks for the debating.

This is the hypocrisy of mass manufactured faith.

verses an organic faith?

It is ridiculous to argue with ding and wing. Outrageous to converse. These multi posters twin dunces can't even organize their own mind long enough to avoid posting with their own multi follow-ups. I suggest what other former frequent OTP posters do...ignore them, ignore their posts. Neither has the capacity to follow a thread, post a legitimate argument, behave civilly, nor offer substance. Each is to wrapped and warped in Bush Fox and now Christianity Bashing to bring anything substantive to the table....Just look at this latest off thread topic in which a REAL military man, professed as being unbelieving having or choosing to argue in defense of religious dogma....
Once again wing and ding have hijacked the thread to their obsessive bashing neurotic self delusions.....

Take it from their boyz.....

[quote=kirks-auto]
It is ridiculous to argue with ding and wing. Outrageous to converse. These multi posters twin dunces can't even organize their own mind long enough to avoid posting with their own multi follow-ups. I suggest what other former frequent OTP posters do...ignore them, ignore their posts. Neither has the capacity to follow a thread, post a legitimate argument, behave civilly, nor offer substance. Each is to wrapped and warped in Bush Fox and now Christianity Bashing to bring anything substantive to the table....Just look at this latest off thread topic in which a REAL military man, professed as being unbelieving having or choosing to argue in defense of religious dogma....
Once again wing and ding have hijacked the thread to their obsessive bashing neurotic self delusions.....

Take it from their boyz.....[/quote]

must be happy hour !! Kirk never adds to the debate, but proceeds with the personal attacks.

what I saw was 911 engaging in a grown up discussion with infantry. then comes Kirk, throwing his happy hour induced confidence around.

way to stay on topic Kirk !! next round is on me

read, laughed, ignored

I note this afternoon that they have found a connection with the radical's overseas from telephone records. I would assume that the blame game will now start as to who did not tell who. But it is starting to appear this was not a simple rage case or some statement against the Army.

Richard, where did you read that?

at least you're still laughing Kirk, would hate to see you go to bed angry !!

Joe, your temple of truth ABC news.

http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/fort-hood-shooter-contact-al-qaeda-terrorists-officials/story?id=9030873

no Richard, Huffington Post is where i worship !!

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/11/10/anwar-al-awlaki-radical-i_n_352822.html

just found it myself, and intereting, reading the summary any linkage sounds questionable at this point, unless more evidence pops up. will be interesting to see how this develops. I guess the guy is talking now, and he has a lawyer.

It will be very hard to get the connection. The administration does not want any part of a link. They want the Army to take the entire hit. I would suspect we will see reports that it was innocent and just fantasy discussions and not a real threat. It is going to come down now to who is doing the reporting.

Joe dishes but CAN'T TAKE IT....Here's his complaint to Skye....!!!!
I just hope you who know me give Skye an earful!

Skye, you have any problem with me let me know. I just hope you will track Joe and 911...only you know they are not one and the same...and look at the discord, disrespect, thread stealing, hateful posts, they contribute. YEAH, I am up to this and I do hope you will censor and throw the pair of them off the forum...Its weeks into a long time happening...
Skye, GO FOR IT....

quote=walshja]
Skye, I wonder if you could give Kirk another gentle reminder about the language policy on your forum?

http://www.mgexperience.net/phorum/read.php?50,1274511,1275540#msg-1275540

Quote: "I for one am having a similar discord with a total ass hole who relentlessly trys to bait me and attack me rather than the premise, thought, idea, political stance. But I also know the ass hole doesn't even know me so how can he hate me[/quote]
[quote]we'd all be shit faced[/quote]

http://www.mgexperience.net/phorum/read.php?50,1274511,1275473#msg-1275473
[quote]I tire of showing what an ass you are[/quote]

http://www.mgexperience.net/phorum/read.php?50,1274511,1275362#msg-1275362 not even sure that this is !!!
[quote]You sir are a megalomanical neurotic vapid phobic[/quote]

also, is there a policy on racial jokes? this was rather tasteless

http://www.mgexperience.net/phorum/read.php?50,1263825,1276233#msg-1276233
[quote]Fox is already cowering down to the president...
In response to President Obama's complaint that FOX News doesn't show enough Black and Hispanic people on their network, FOX has announced that they will now air "America 's Most Wanted" TWICE a week.[/quote]"

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,573052,00.html Devout muslim>?>>Alleged Fort Hood Shooter Frequented Local Strip Club

[quote=blues]
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,573052,00.html Devout muslim>?>>Alleged Fort Hood Shooter Frequented Local Strip Club[/quote]

Blues wasnt Atta at a strip club drinking and snorting coke the night before 911? Devout? Hardly..

Soon they will have to call it what it is and go forward with what they are going to do about it. It was an act of terrorism by an Muslim extremist it is irrelevant when he bacame so extreme. That makes it different from a rage crime and insanity in the normal context.

[quote=6863m]
Soon they will have to call it what it is and go forward with what they are going to do about it. It was an act of terrorism by an Muslim extremist it is irrelevant when he bacame so extreme. That makes it different from a rage crime and insanity in the normal context.[/quote]

Careful, Richard you will come across as anti muslim. I believe I called him a terrorist at the on set and so far Im batting a thousand. The guy obviously has had terrorist sympathy's, if we aren't guilty by association what are we? The imam that was his mentor has fled the country.

I hope they convict and either hang this scumbag or shoot him. God I hate the needle. Live by the sword, die by the sword.

[quote=6863m]
Soon they will have to call it what it is and go forward with what they are going to do about it. It was an act of terrorism by an Muslim extremist it is irrelevant when he bacame so extreme. That makes it different from a rage crime and insanity in the normal context.[/quote]

Maybe its just an "unfortunate consequence of war"... since we have no problem invading/occupying/murdering 100s of thousands of Muslims based on lies. You reap what you sow.

Now Richard, care to tell me why when there are many other white/christian mass murderers we dont throw their religion into question?

Look at the US murder rates, about 3000 every 10 weeks... how many are muslim.

[quote="911 Truth"]
[quote=6863m]
Soon they will have to call it what it is and go forward with what they are going to do about it. It was an act of terrorism by an Muslim extremist it is irrelevant when he bacame so extreme. That makes it different from a rage crime and insanity in the normal context.[/quote]

Maybe its just an "unfortunate consequence of war"... since we have no problem invading/occupying/murdering 100s of thousands of Muslims based on lies. You reap what you sow.

Now Richard, care to tell me why when there are many other white/christian mass murderers we dont throw their religion into question?

Look at the US murder rates, about 3000 every 10 weeks... how many are muslim.[/quote]

Do you have a link to support that statement?

[quote=cstrong45]
[quote="911 Truth"]
[quote=6863m]
Soon they will have to call it what it is and go forward with what they are going to do about it. It was an act of terrorism by an Muslim extremist it is irrelevant when he bacame so extreme. That makes it different from a rage crime and insanity in the normal context.[/quote]

Maybe its just an "unfortunate consequence of war"... since we have no problem invading/occupying/murdering 100s of thousands of Muslims based on lies. You reap what you sow.

Now Richard, care to tell me why when there are many other white/christian mass murderers we dont throw their religion into question?

Look at the US murder rates, about 3000 every 10 weeks... how many are muslim.[/quote]

Do you have a link to support that statement?[/quote]

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/homicide/tables/totalstab.htm

In some cases there are on avg more than 3K every 10 weeks.

A nice graphical representation for you as well...

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/homicide/hmrt.htm#longterm

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lgL8FDUtkWQ

Young Turks, take on Pat Robertson..

The analogies just don't work. We know what terrorism is and we know what mass murder is and we also know what random acts of violence mean. All the equivilancy in the world will not change the facts of what happened here and why the Administration and their minions can't allow it to come out as a terrorist attack. But politics should not be the guiding criterion.

[quote="911 Truth"]
A nice graphical representation for you as well...

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/homicide/hmrt.htm#longterm[/quote]

Sure doesnt dispell the idea that blacks commit the majority of murders. Out right winners even though they have only 12 percent of the populatioin.