MG MGB and MGB GT Tech Talk
I'm a carburetted guy, well except for the trucks and the Harley. So, just for giggles and grins, how would one get a transplanted fuel injected electronic ignition engine to play nice in a B??
I'm guessing that you just use the distributor wiring the same as you would if you were converting to a Crane or Pertronics unit, but what would you need for the FI?
talk to BMC in the V6 forum. Brian can tell you chapter and verse.
Hey Chris,
There was a lengthy post awhile back on just that subject. I think it was one of these. I'm too much in the "keep it original" camp, but I do enjoy reading about what others have done.
http://www.mgexperience.net/phorum/read.php?1,1163869,1163869#msg-1163869
http://www.mgexperience.net/phorum/read.php?1,1156337,1156337#msg-1156337
One of the guys I used to work with (Tyler Madia) was experimenting w/ FI on his GT. It was fun to have an after work 'show and tell' once in awhile.
Paul
The next big project on the '73, after the front-end rebuild, will be fuel injection. I've been buying bits and pieces for the conversion for the past year. Technically, it's not all that complicated. Still a LOT of challenges, not least of which is fabbing one-off adapters and what-not. Local CNC guy just went out of business, so not it's time to find another shop. Even doing this on the cheap, you're looking at a minimum of $600 - $800. Doing it "better" obviously makes the $$$ go up. I'll easily have over $1200 invested in this once I'm done. Probably over $1500. This is one of those because I can projects.
It'll be a long time before you see any return on investment. (Gonna contradict myself on that last bit, now: If you do a decent, workable FI setup, with distributorless ignition, on a newly-rebuilt engine it's possible you'll extend the life of said engine. Over time, rich running - which is common with these cars - will cause extra wear and tear. Properly-installed FI will never run richer than needed at any given moment in time. Longer time between rebuilds = $$$.)
Now - were you talking about converting the existing 1.8L, or transplanting an entirely new engine? If the latter, get a donor car like a fuel-injected '93 Camaro and swap the engine, transmission and wiring harness into the B. Voila!
This has to be the nicest set up I have found,couple that to a Megasquirt computer and You can tune it with a laptop while driving down the road.
http://www.extrudabody.biz/servlet/the-240/Kit-cln--MGB-Twin-SU/Detail
Then go here and they have installed kits with a video of them in action on the 280Z Datsun and also the MG B,wait to the very end of the MG B video wherre they have the camera near the tail pipe,I love the sound of that cam.
http://www.extrudabody.com/TechInfo/Installations.html
Here is the website for the Megasquirt computers,You can purchase an assembled unit or You can purchase a kit to put together Yourself.
http://www.diyautotune.com/catalog/index.php
Here is another injection system that adapts to Your Z or SU carb and looks good too,It is not as expensive as the Extrudabody kit for just the injector adaptors but after You price out the complete kit it is about the same as the Extrudabody.This kit is set up with a GM computer so there is no tuning it unless You change chips.I think this system would couple up OK to the Megasquirt computer and then be a pretty nice setup.
http://www.pattonmachine.com/CarbsandAdapters.htm
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The next big project on the '73, after the front-end rebuild, will be fuel injection.
doesn't have to be really expensive with CNC stuff, Rick. The lashup with twin Zeniths as throttle bodies (old TR4 carbs, if that) can even retain a stock look ...search on the forum and you'll find it.
Mac...great new avitar....I know you owned that car once........
Two years ago there was a BMW engine transplanted into an MGB. That's what I'm thinking about, not adding onto a B motor.
Like Rick said, get everything from the donor vehicle. You would need the engine harness and engine management computer for starters. Then figure out powering it into the B electrical system. Most new vehicles no longer have distributors. The ignition and fuel delivery are all managed by the computer and various sensors.
I think you would have to do some careful shopping to get the whole package. Auto wreckers tend to split the components up to sell separately. Probably easier with older cars like the Camaro.
I have fuel injected the stock 4 banger and also installed a number of fuel injected v6's into B's.
I describe the retrofit of EFI to the stock motor in my journal pages here.
I am in the process of making a simple kit for people who want one,
and am working to update the journal pages for DIY people.
The TBI setup (like from an S10) is pretty easy to transplant, Relatively few wires, etc.
Have to use a short air filter
I prefer the later multiport setups, but they are a few more wires..
The wiring diagrams are readily available on the internet, so it's no mystery. Just requires
some attention to detail.
I am about to reprogram a GM ecu for my 4-banger setup so the efi conversion for a B will be really quite cheap.
I'm going to use an OBD1 and Moates all in one device so I can tune it in real time and then flash the chip. ECU's from GM are really sturdy, and cheap.
I am in the process of doing a crossflow. It has been quite fun. I went with the megasquirt controller. Almost did the extrudabody, and like their concept, but did not like the look of the finished product. Bit like mechano, especially with the red-anodizing. Scott has a nice set-up that keeps the stock look.
Chris,
We have a local shop that put a supercharger on the 18V engine along with a 2 port fuel injection using the siamese intake manifold. If that guy is at this Friday's breakfast meeting I will see what they used for the computer, injectors and whatever other bits they needed. I know this isn't excactly what you had in mind but seems like an interesting point of information.
I like any post and any information that has to do with fuel injecting carbed engines.
I do like the looks of Scotts setup and may be trying that.
I just posted a for sale book in the Trader section. It's titled "Building & Tuning High-Performance Electronic Fuel Injection". A description is in the ad.
Clifton
Gavin,
You dont need an IAC (which is actually a controller-not a sensor), or (any of the sensors,actually) to run a Megasquirt. It is usually run in speed density mode, and the MAP sensor is onboard the unit. Using more sensors just gives better performance, but they are not needed to be present for the Megasquirt to work.
On my 4 cylinder, I did not use the IAC. I set the idle with the idle speed screw on the throttle.
I did use a water temp sensor(CTS) and an air temp sensor(ATS), and also a throttle position sensor.(TPS).
I had read in a post last year of one run without the TPS
The TPS makes adjustments for abrupt changes in throttle position (e.g. step quickly on the gas, and it will richen the mixture innediately so the car doesnt buck or backfire)
The WTC iinformation used by the ecu to compensate for a cold motor . The ecu richens the mixture, depending on temperature (you can set the curve yourself)
The ATC iinformation used by the ecu to compensate density of air, which varies with temperature. Cold air has more oxygen per unit volume, so the ecu adjusts the pulse width accordingly.so the air/fuel ratio (AFR) is correct.
The only big drawback of the megasquirt is that it is expensive if you have more than one car. It's basically $300 for each car. If you reprogram a GM ecu,, with Moates all in one device, you pay about $350 for it and about $50 for the ECU. Once the car is tuned, you can use the moates stuff on another ecu. So the second car only costs $50.
I've bought several Megasquirts and think it's time to try another route. The tuning strategy is the same for most any system, and the software even looks similar.
Scot, thanks for the info. I had been reading the megasquirt online manual a while ago, and needless to say it is pretty dry and dull reading. It does seem like one of the better systems if you are only retrofitting one car, however I see you point on owning multiple vehicles.
I have prepared an Introduction to electronic fuel injection (EFI) in powerpoint format. It is an introduction for people with no significant background, and includes some drawings and pictures of systems.. It also gives strategies for retrofitting EFI. I gave it as a talk last spring at the local MG Club meeting. If anyone wants a copy of it, email me and I'll send you a copy of it.
I already tried to post it here, but Skype said I'd have to convert it to HTML, and it might be a long time before it got posted, so I'll send it directly to anyone who wants it.
Scot
You know that in Power Point, at least the 2003 version, you have the option to save the file as html.
I'm away from home (where the computer, files, and powerpoint are). When I get home I'll definitely look!! Thank you Larry!
Scott sent me that power point file. EFI is over my head but Scott's intro is very good.
Paul
Electronic fuel injection is a great idea, but why not also upgrade to crank-fired ignition, a supercharger, and cold-air induction at the same time?
[url=http://www.britishv8.org/Articles/MGB-V8-Supercharger.htm]Here's an article that shows how Bill Jacobson (no relation) installed all four on his V8-converted MGB.[/url]
Here are a several more articles on MGB-V8 electronic fuel injection installation principles and techniques:
[url=http://www.britishv8.org/Articles/2007-TechSession7.htm]Jim Stuart explains how to install EFI on a Rover-powered MGB V8[/url]
[url=http://www.britishv8.org/Articles/Rover-Hot-Wire-EFI.htm]Glen Towery explains how to install EFI on a Rover powered MGB V8[/url]
[url=http://www.britishv8.org/Articles/Roger-Parker-on-EFI.htm]Roger Parker explains how to install EFI on a Rover powered MGB V8[/url]
[url=http://www.britishv8.org/Articles/Rover-14CUX-EFI.htm]Technical guide to Rover "hot wire" fuel injection, with theory of operation, troubleshooting, etc.[/url]
Why not add all this other stuff? In which order? All at once?
These items are all quite different in character, performance, and cost. Each has some limitation.
From my narrow viewpoint, I look at them as follows:
Fuel injection: Car runs better under all conditions. Best improvement for under $1000
Can be done with about 1 day's downtime.. Can be done with or without added crank fire option. That and other mods (supercharger, etc.can be added later. Extends engine life, better gas mileage, etc. Lotsa bang for the buck. A real winner for most cases.
Supercharger. More power with same motor. I think of it as a way to get around having a bigger motor or adding more displacement. It does have disadvantages: cost, and limitations. The motor with a supercharger now has narrower powerband, so for best performance needs to have the right gearing setup. It does not make motor run cleaner, srtart better (or as well as before).. Adds a stress to the motor for which it was not designed. Depending on motor, it may or may not be well tolerated. I look at superchargers and wonder if a better, wiser choice is a larger motor. For camparison, a supercharged 4 cyl B motor is inferior is terms of performance and reliability to a stock 3.4 V6, but similar in cost. The 3.4 has a very wide powerband, so there's less shifting, and it can be made even more powerful.
Cold air induction. An inexpensive way to increase the maximum power by a few percent. (see, for example, my journal page 5). Does not make car run or start better. Little downtime. Small potatoes compared to others above.
ALL AT ONCE?
There are many other wiser ways to throw money at a car. A reall sweet low miles Z3, for example, fetches only a little over $10K these days.
I would still like to build a well ported crossflow running independent throttle bodies, then add a turbo or supercharger later. I understand the benefits of converting to a gm v6 however I am more interested in improving / modernising the stock B engine
All these things are dependent on one's goals, values and resources. We're so lucky to have a lot of options and people dedicated to trying things on their cars. This marque has had such a strong following that people are still trying to improve it now-after it's been out of production for a quarter century or so!
A better head for a B is a great thing. For improving a B, it s a great place to do something.
A well engineered head could make a B run a lot better.
I haven't looked lately, but they used to be pretty expensive.
Nonetheless, it is a great place to start, and it will serve as a platform for later additions.
If you want a pseudo-stock look with the power of the best supercharged modified stock motor, but with the wide torque band and reliability of the V6, then do the conversion and just add this detail to the intake manifold
For the V6 I used the Holley FI. It was a pretty straightforward install. Tuning from a laptop was not difficult and it gave you a lot of control. Control is nice when you get a flat spot and want to add fuel or adjust timing. Just plug in the laptop and make the change.
Closed loop is not the best with this system. It reacts slow enough it bounces back and forth over target. Closed loop works best for newer systems which learn and change the database (simple explanation) such as the fast system. That is why they require no tuning because they learn on their own. They use a setting form the database and if it is not right the database is updated. They have come along way form adapting existing systems, burning chips and hoping they work in all regimes for your set up.
Photo:
http://www.rc-tech.net/MGB/assembly1/ew.jpg
How much did it cost? The megasquirt is pretty inexpensive and it responds quite rapidly.
I', about to get Moates' device and rechip a GM ecu which has the self learning feature. It'll cost about $400 all together (ecu, real time emulator, chip burner, cables, etc.). If I make more than one car, each additional car will just need about $100, and no more.
[/quote]
Drool!!!!! with a Capital D!!!! wow. that is beeeeautiful, and i'll bet a little fast:)[/quote]
Bring lots of money. Can you see it with the bonnet closed?
Chris,
I talked to the folks at the the breakfast this morning about that supercharged FI B. The only informaition I could get was the system used as the particular person I need to talk to wasn't there. The system they used was the Autronic - http://www.autronic.com.au/
Thanks for the effort, but I would only be interested in something other than a B engine.
It's not that big a deal to add or retrofit EFI to most motors. The fuel, ecm and the injectors only use voltages and resistance values, and are blind to brand name.
More interesting information here http://www.mrm-racing.se/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=5 I've also heard that grass roots motorsports has some interesting information also.
I just had to go and do it and "DRAG" this old thread back out of the swamp.:thumbsup:
Have a start on what My idea is for the fuel injection for the B,I thank Scot Abbott for the extensive research He has done to doing this conversion,it has made it a lot easier for us that are following.
I decided to go with a slightly different approach and will be adding more pics as I go but the main conversion is what Scot has posted.
I doubled the size of the injectors and installed them into the spacer blocks for the SU carb setup.i will run this and if I think I can get improved performance by using four smaller injectors then I will add them later to the opposite side of the spacers.If this will work at all.:eyepop::bouncing:
Dang, Marty - what a simple, creative solution. Spacers are a lot cheaper than carbs - plus, no carbs are harmed in the making of this film! :thumbup:
If you're planning on using a MegaSquirt with Jean Bellanger's fully sequential injection mod, you will need four injectors - plus, IIRC you'll need to go to coil-on-plug crank-fired ignition. If "just" the stock M/S or a GM ECU like Scot's recently been working with, the two larger injectors may well do the job. Biggest problem with them might be wetting of the intake manifold.
This thread (http://www.mgexperience.net/phorum/read.php?1,1006921) has a LOT of good info from both Scot and Gerald O'Docherty. If you haven't done so, search for Tyler Madia's posts on the subject also.
Keep the posts coming!
I had looked at that approach when I first started (inject into the spacers), and was worried that the decrease in intake manifold olume would bring on uneven fueling of the cylinders , the source of which is the siamese head design. There has been a lot written on the subject, and some problems have been reported when people used the "wet" approach (i.e. inject into manifold). I even measured the total wet volume, and I found that even the spacer volume and the balance tube volume were needed to make up the required volume to avoid differential fueling of the cylinders.
An approach I didn't take, but which would be equivalent to the TBI approach I took (i.e. inject into the air before the throttle plate) is to mount the injectors in a holder inside air filter housing (between the air filter and the throttle plate). This should work well, providing the volume is not so large that a backfire causes a minor explosion or fire.
Toyota Twin Can 20 Valve in a Bugeye
EFI and modern engines in these old British cars is the only way to go !!
Getting a start.
Here is the TPS mounted.
And a shot of the carbs.
