MGB: Is a socialism a bad form of government?

Or something we need to get used to?

It's bad and yes, get used to it :-(

Probably need to get use to it if BHO gets his wish.

Not bad? No not really, if you have no dreams, no aspirations for your kids and want to put your life in the hands of some imbecile who only wants to watch you sweat you days away while he either stands over you with a whip or sends you edicts off of a desk three thousand miles away.

Socialism? Socialism is for wimps and pansies and creatures with no guts and no ideas.

Jack

Yes , its bad , look around the world.

I dont know, Europeans seem pretty happy?

Socialism (Socialism is not communism. Communism is in theory socialism) and Capitalism are blended in all successful Western European countries. Think Scandanavian countries, Sweden, Norway, etc... where the standard of living is typically the highest in the world

jfrankr Wrote:

Quote: "
Socialism (Socialism is not communism. Communism is in theory socialism) and Capitalism are blended in all successful Western European countries. Think Scandanavian countries, Sweden, Norway, etc... where the standard of living is typically the highest in the world
"

And don't forget Switzerland... I have an acquaintance, former co-worker, who was born here of a hard line right wing father and a Swiss mother. He was taught the hard line well by his father. He hardly speaks to his Swiss relatives - uncles, cousins - calls them a bunch of liberals he cannot relate to. I really think that is kind of pathetic. The guy has an opportunity to open a whole world of adventure for himself, his wife and his two sons, and won't because he disagrees with their politics.

............Is a socialism a bad form of government?..........

it all depends on how much you want to pay for your fishing tackle.....ain't that right JackMG............

wyatt Wrote:

Quote: "
............Is a socialism a bad form of government?..........
it all depends on how much you want to pay for your fishing tackle.....ain't that right JackMG............
"

You betcha - the socialists will charge you for the earthworms you dig out of your own back yard.. ;)

......yer home free......you guys down there eat dirt......Obama say's he won't tax food..........

YES!

My idea of a good government is one that uses all the ideas available that have worked well, and rejects all the ideas that haven't worked well, but is flexible enough to shift towards what works best in the current economic and social climate, while trying to adhere to some greater model based on a set of ideals.

I actually agree with Rod. :)

.........I.m pretty sure that is why we aren't neandertals

Rod H. Wrote:

Quote: "
My idea of a good government is one that uses all the ideas available that have worked well, and rejects all the ideas that haven't worked well, but is flexible enough to shift towards what works best in the current economic and social climate, while trying to adhere to some greater model based on a set of ideals.
"

Rob, missed you at the debate. That is well put. I think the "flexible" part is what so many people have a hard time with. We (USA) are a representative democracy with a strong (not strictly) capitalistic system of ownership & commerce.
For those who do not believe the Constitution is a living document, the framers did not trust us with nearly the electoral process we have today. The voting public (no women by the way) elected only our congressman. We did not elect the President (still don't directly) or our Senators.

But Don... America offers the best of both worlds!

We've privatized profit! When the markets go up capitalist make a killing... and socialized risk, when the markets go do we bail the capitalists out.

What�s not to like! If you�re a capitalist� you can�t lose!

Yes it is bad and yes we are and have been headed there for sometime. We will just get on a steeper curve with Obama.

It will be very bad for us through the transition. Europe was reduced to nothing during the war and they started from scratch and they had a very sympathetic Rosevelt US Congress to help them. The other side of the coin was Japan where they had MacArthur and he was very conservative. Japan went a different way with a few exceptions.

We will try to do it piecemeal and it will be a very difficult hodgepodge affair. I have said before in posts we are in the no mans land right now. If Obama wins we are moving out quickly. Especially with all the turmoil. Obama will have a nationalized solution for everything and a very agreeable congress. Look how easy the words "you can't afford health care and we can" roll off his lips.

"If something comes along that you don't like, there are a few sort of four-letter words that you can use to push it out of the sphere of discussion. If you were in a bar downtown, they might have different words, but if you're an educated person what you use are complicated words like conspiracy theory or Marxist.

It's a way of pushing unpleasant questions off the agenda so that we can continue in our own happy ideology."

NOAM CHOMSKY

Eric, but no one used a negative word to change anything or scare anyone. We have reconciled our demise in our happy ideology. Pretty scary we are just being taken along without a wimper in the comfort of no more greedy capitalists and free healthcare and houses for all.

One percent home loans all subsidized by the good ol Federal Government. Just send us the money and we send you back what we think you need.

6863m Wrote:

Quote: "
Eric, but no one used a negative word to change anything or scare anyone. We have reconciled our demise in our happy ideology. Pretty scary we are just being taken along without a wimper in the comfort of no more greedy capitalists and free healthcare and houses for all.
One percent home loans all subsidized by the good ol Federal Government. Just send us the money and we send you back what we think you need.
"

See, when you have it pointed out to you, you don't throw around the "boogey man" words - just indicate what you mean through extreme sarcasm

Hey, no-one says you have to care about others less privileged than you... that is what the government is for.

6863m Wrote:

Quote: "
The other side of the coin was Japan where they had MacArthur and he was very conservative. Japan went a different way with a few exceptions.
"

Japan is/was WAY more socialist than Europe ever was. Don't let the bright lights fool you.

Socialism only works when everyone is nice. Just a quick review of this forum shows that this isn�t the case.

The leaders of a country like it because they control everything and determine what you need, how much you need and when you will get it. What has happened in the past is that the leaders take advantage of this power and use it to stay in control. When the laws of supply and demand come into play, the demand for "free" stuff exceeds the supply so there is a shortage and therefore the long waiting times we have all heard of to receive medical care in some of the countries with socialized medical care.

IMHP, the perfect system would be a shamelessly generous capitalism. Being that that fails in our imperfect world we need our government to do what it is supposed to do, do for us we cannot do by ourselves.

jfrankr Wrote:

Quote: "
IMHP, the perfect system would be a shamelessly generous capitalism. Being that that fails in our imperfect world we need our government to do what it is supposed to do, do for us we cannot do by ourselves.
"

Obviously that last line is subject to discussion.

...Noam Chomsky...is a clown,...but even worse a hypocritical....clown. Research him....he is the classic example of do as I say....not as I do......A true dema-gag.....

Quote.... "If something comes along that you don't like, there are a few sort of four-letter words that you can use to push it out of the sphere of discussion. If you were in a bar downtown, they might have different words, but if you're an educated person what you use are complicated words like conspiracy theory or Marxist.

It's a way of pushing unpleasant questions off the agenda so that we can continue in our own happy ideology."

NOAM CHOMSKY

..........Yup....vs his ideology.............

[Sarcasm throughout]

Perhaps we should import Hugo Chavez and begin installing his version of 21st Centruy Socialism here in the soon to be USSA. Nationalization of production and distribution sure seem onthe rise, especially since our president and the Democratic leadership in the legislature recently conspired to nationalized credit losses and bank ownership. I have no doubt that our federal government can effeciently and effectively manage all manufacturing, the energy sector, the service sector and heathcare, much like they manage FEMA and the SEC. Who needs private property when the government will take care of you from cradle to grave? Who needs to work when you'll get your share or production rergardless. From each according to his ability...to each according to his need. Is that really what you want?

As they say..."tax the rich...feed the poor....till there are no rich no more...."
But I always wondered...who will feed the poor after there are no rich no more....?
That's right, your federal government will feed us all.

By the way, for those of you espousing the merits of socialism...you may notice that as soon as the socialists take control of all natural resources, production and distribution, they begin work on "reinventing their government" by revising their country's constitution, purging the judiciary and concentrating power in the executive. I read yesterday where Equador is currently working on a new Constituiton, their 21st.

Something I have wondered about the US.

Why is education for the masses more important than health care for the masses?
The US has a public education system and no public health care system.
It seem strange no one complains that the do not have to send their children to a private school. There are no groups demanding the public education system be closed down and replaced with private ones!

Which would seem more important your health or an education? When you get sick all the education in the world will not help you.

Several threads have made me wonder about health care in the US. It seems that the private sector is getting away with legal robbery.
http://www.mgexperience.net/phorum/read.php?42,660985,663144#msg-663144
http://www.mgexperience.net/phorum/read.php?47,913635,914279#msg-914279
http://www.mgexperience.net/phorum/read.php?1,347642,347642#msg-347642

Jim1971 Wrote:

Quote: "
Something I have wondered about the US.
Why is education for the masses more important than health care for the masses?
[/quote]
The debate is not over health care, its over health insurance. Health care is generally available to anyone who can pay or get themselves to a public hospital or clinic. There are government entitlement programs for elderly and children's health care. the real problem is that the middle class often can't afford health insurance and they make too much to qualify for the entitlement programs. And health care costs are outrageous. In Dallas, an outside audit of Parkland Hospital (public) found that many insured patients don't disclose that they are insured to avoid paying their deductibe and co-pay. The vast majority of maternity patients are illegal aliens. Snope "Parkland Hospital" if you are interested. And Parkland never bothered to check the insurance data-bases, they just demand more tax money. We live in a country where poor people have color TV's and car, even if they are beaters. Children living in poverty have $100 dollar AirJordans shoes and cell phones, but no health care. Go figure....

[quote]
The US has a public education system and no public health care system.
[/quote]
Public education in the US is really just a jobs program. While there are many dedicated and professional teachers (I'm married to one), they are the exception to the rule. DOE has most teachers spending their time filling out paper work rather than teaching. Most of the bright young talent quit within five years. The overall quality of public education in the US is poor at best overall, especially in the urban centers. It is nearly impossible to fire bad teachers, they only get shuffled to other schools. And the drop out rate is near 50% of kids who finish 9th grade.

[quote]
It seem strange no one complains that the do not have to send their children to a private school. There are no groups demanding the public education system be closed down and replaced with private ones!
[/quote]
There are many complaints about having to fund public schools and also pay for private education. Been there, done that. That is the basis of the entire school voucher debate.

[quote]
Which would seem more important your health or an education? When you get sick all the education in the world will not help you.
"

Clearly they are both important and expensive. My heartburn over nationalized healthcare is that in reality those of us who purchase heath insurance now are going to be required to pay for heath insurance for people who have no insurance, either through surcharges, taxes or some other government plan. And all of our healthcare will then be rationed. In my view, and I agree with Obama here (at least I think I have this right)...everyone who is to be covered will be required to pay some amount of their own premiums.

Jim1971 Wrote:

Quote: "
Something I have wondered about the US.
Why is education for the masses more important than health care for the masses?
The US has a public education system and no public health care system.
It seem strange no one complains that the do not have to send their children to a private school. There are no groups demanding the public education system be closed down and replaced with private ones!
Which would seem more important your health or an education? When you get sick all the education in the world will not help you.
Several threads have made me wonder about health care in the US. It seems that the private sector is getting away with legal robbery.
http://www.mgexperience.net/phorum/read.php?42,660985,663144#msg-663144
http://www.mgexperience.net/phorum/read.php?47,913635,914279#msg-914279
http://www.mgexperience.net/phorum/read.php?1,347642,347642#msg-347642
"

I believe it falls along the lines of teach a man to fish and he will eat for a life time. If you don't educate the population then they cannot be productive, get jobs and pay taxes. If something doesn�t cost you anything then you are more likely to misuse the service. This shows up now as people going to the emergency room for a headache, a cold, hangover or some other minor ailment.

Jim1971 Wrote:

The same people that stand against single-payer health care here also want to mostly get rid of public education. They have de-funded it for decades following desegregation. They think $5000 "Vouchers" for private school will replace a quality public school education. Also, education here is a politcal football. Any real reform that would help the students is supressed by the Left and the Right. The whole thing is run like a minimum security prison for the benefit of the guards (teachers).

I am 99% convinced that home schooling for most of K-8th is the best way to go. Combine morning home classes with quality afternoon sports/hands-on learning activities with other local home-schooled kids. Also consider that overseas in places like India and the P.I. it is very cheap to have a qualified teacher come to your house and give private lessons. There are also high quality local and international schools all over the world.

Soyokaze 72MGB Wrote:

Quote: "
...The whole thing is run like a minimum security prison for the benefit of the guards (teachers).
"

Although I agree with much of what you say, I must disagree with the above statement.

Rod H. Wrote:

Quote: "
Soyokaze 72MGB Wrote:Quote:
...The whole thing is run like a minimum security prison for the benefit of the guards (teachers).
Although I agree with much of what you say, I must disagree with the above statement.
"

I am over-generalizing here, my critisism is more of the system rather than the teachers. Good folks working in schools are the overwhelming majority. However, it does often seem that the people that work for the schools, especially in administration, are more importent than the kids when choices are made. Consider how many kids are put on drugs for supposed "ADD" disorders now vs. 20 years ago. The whole model for education with large 2000-3000 student high schools dehumanizes the kids like any prison. They might as well wear numbers on their shirts. Typical schools built from the '70's to today have no windows and little natural light or ventilation, just like a prison. The kids get little to no guidance in selecting coursework that will help find a job upon graduation. With no direction or hope for the future, the kids have little to work towards. The food they are served does little to improve the kids health. Often it is all pre-packaged junk food, just like in prison. Most schools only offer sports to the very best student athletes, average kids have little chance to participate. Our HS dropout rates are so high, the whole system needs to be looked at for reform.

Soyokaze 72MGB Wrote:

Quote: "
I am over-generalizing here, my critisism is more of the system rather than the teachers. Good folks working in schools are the overwhelming majority. However, it does often seem that the people that work for the schools, especially in administration, are more importent than the kids when choices are made. Consider how many kids are put on drugs for supposed "ADD" disorders now vs. 20 years ago. The whole model for education with large 2000-3000 student high schools dehumanizes the kids like any prison. They might as well wear numbers on their shirts. Typical schools built from the '70's to today have no windows and little natural light or ventilation, just like a prison. The kids get little to no guidance in selecting coursework that will help find a job upon graduation. With no direction or hope for the future, the kids have little to work towards. The food they are served does little to improve the kids health. Often it is all pre-packaged junk food, just like in prison. Most schools only offer sports to the very best student athletes, average kids have little chance to participate. Our HS dropout rates are so high, the whole system needs to be looked at for reform.
"

Unfortunately, there is a lot wrong with the schools. Since my wife is a teacher I have seen all of this, and we talk about it on almost a daily basis. She is powerless to do much about it, except to try to do as much as possible for her kids with what's available.

I'm not deaf to your ideas about home schooling. When we lived in the inner city I home schooled my 6th grade stepson for almost a year because he was getting nothing at school. The school he attended was close to your prisoner/warden scenario, but I grew up with one of his teachers there, and she would have changed things if she could have.

Some things that money can't buy, but are in short supply, are proper nutrition, parental participation, and discipline (in and out of school).

Soyokaze 72MGB Wrote:

Quote: "
They have de-funded it for decades following desegregation.
"

Agree with much of what you said except this. Funding overall is way, way up, although the quality of the product is way, way down.

......."especially in administration,"..........your joking I hope!!!

"Any real reform that would help the students is supressed by the Left and the Right. The whole thing is run like a minimum security prison for the benefit of the guards (teachers)". ....... an even bigger joke.....................please show me how the "right" supresses reform............your answer better be substantive..........

wyatt Wrote:

Quote: "
please show me how the "right" supresses reform............your answer better be substantive..........
"

1. Vouchers

2. No Child Left Behind

3. Prop. 13 in California (there are problems on the Left too, this is a Right example)

....as I said................your joking!!!!!! also show how the adm is more inclined to neglect the students than the unions..........

Can we call it socialism when the absolute majority of THE PEOPLE tell their congress that they do not want to bail out the AIG's of the world....and then they, (The Congress) does it anyway?

Obviously the congress doesn't give a tinker's damn about what the constituents want.

Funny how the left is always talking down about the rich guy......But that rich guy is losing his ass if he is in the stock market today and you don't hear shit from anyone........

If a guy makes too much, he is to be looked down upon (even though he pays more than his fair share of the taxes) . But if loses money, well heck, he assumed the risk....tough shit, buddy.

No matter who wins this presidential election, in 4 years we will still be a capitalism. If that same winner retains his office, we will again still be a capitalist country 4 years later. We will still be bombarded by those fearing we're about to fall head first into marxism. As a matter of fact, 12 years from now we'll be hearing the same stuff.

........public education.....to build a coalition of victims requires a whipping boy,and when theft is the plan ya go where the money is..........

Jfrankr, yes capitalizm but the difference will be that ownership in the company which now means the profits go to the owner investor. In the new Obama world much less goes to the shareholder because the social costs are being taken first. Therefore the value of the company is significantly less. His first step in that direction will be in health care and that money will come from a business tax. That is why the other markets are so much smaller than ours.

Obama sees a different world than we or at least I do. He sees a company employing people paying a wage and paying huge social and income taxes. He does not care that the owners are getting even less as a dividend or share value. I does not see capitalizm that way. He sees it the same as France or Germany. Companies are revenue generators to pay for government and social costs.

He does not care that a Company would pay a 70% or 90% tax on profit. If he does a business tax he will put it on sales not profit. He considers the distribution of 10% plenty of profit. He dosen't even respect those who make more than $250K let alone and investor making $250K.

...6863m....no chit....give them H...........you have a total grip on the real world, I am afraid many here do not. Charity, altrusim, compassion or anything else it can be called, if done through force or threats of imprisonment is nothing but tyranny.Gov't is HUGE, and a voracious consumer of tax dollars. To tell me that I'll be charged more, for more of the very Gov't that I don't want is ......what ...the stamp act....Boston tea party time?????

Capitalism is people exploiting people.
Socialism is exactly the opposite

"The creatures outside looked from pig to man, and from man to pig, and from pig to man again; but already it was impossible to say which was which."

......you mow my lawn, I give you your asking price of 50 bucks......thats capitalism, having you do sex acts with my dog for 50 bucks then saying you performed poorly and giving you 20 bucks instead, thats explotation.............socialism is when you brings your pals, and you keep their 20 bucks............and feel good about it.

Capitalism - I grow a field of wheat, sell it for $100, pay $35 in taxes and keep $65.

Socialism - I grow a field of wheat, the government takes it all,I stand in line with 100 other people and we each get one serving of the wheat I grew for dinner.

............JNickell, a fine job indeed,..... but I still like mine better.............it had multiple acts in it in the finest Shakespearen tradition.

JNickell Wrote:

Quote: "
Capitalism - I grow a field of wheat, sell it for $100, pay $35 in taxes and keep $65.
Socialism - I grow a field of wheat, the government takes it all,I stand in line with 100 other people and we each get one serving of the wheat I grew for dinner.
"

Exactly, until you and everyone else is sick of being cheated out of your wheat--then there are no wheat farmers; the government creates a program of collectivised growing, and ten people grow half the wheat on the same land. Repeat ad infinitum.

Soyokaze 72MGB Wrote:

Quote: "

... The kids get little to no guidance in selecting coursework that will help find a job upon graduation. With no direction or hope for the future, the kids have little to work towards. ......... Our HS dropout rates are so high, the whole system needs to be looked at for reform.
"

Guidance and direction is what the parents are for. I am sorry that your schools are not up to par in your opinion. I am quite happy with the education my child is getting in our school system. In my opinion the main reason for our excellent school is that the parents take an active participation in the school. If your school is not working properly than work for change in the system. The major complaint that I have with our school system is the number of administrators and there staff appears to be excessive which is a common issue with most government run institutions.

Wyatt said:

"It's a way of pushing unpleasant questions off the agenda so that we can continue in our own happy ideology."

Or.....said another way.......

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