Is the Internet to Blame for the Demise of Specialist Garages?

This is a question / idea which has been nagging me for some time.

Is the freedom of information on such sites and forums and these (and of course a multitude of others) one of the reasons for the demise of such specialist garages as John Twist's? A thread about the auction off of the memorabilia is just below and got me thinking about this again.

As more of us can and do tinker with our cars using info, pictures and videos gleaned from the internet, are we no longer supporting the mechanics as once we may have? It's gotta be tough being Haynes and Veloe for the same reason, I figure. I certainly have learnt a lot from the 'net, and don't doubt my car has spent less time at the garage as a result. Would this have occured anyway as numbers of these cars decline and only tinkerers are left with them, as opposed to housewives who just put petrol in it and expect it to go and take it to a garage should anything goes amiss (not to disparage housewives here!!).

Similalry, sometimes local suppliers who don't stock the same quality or recommended items for such items as carbs, distributors and dampers can lose out in this scenario, whereby the research on the 'best make' or 'best restorer' ends out with an overseas order rather than a local sale. Survival of the fittest?

I don't think any of this is 'bad' as such, perhaps just a reflection on the times and technology. Nevertheless, I'm interested to read what you guys think....!

Yes and no - I hear what you're saying, but I know when I worked on my first B, we didn't have the internet. If I wanted parts, I had to buy them locally or from the local garage. There were a few catalogs around, but you kind of had to know they were out there. Plus I didn't have the network of folks to keep my interest up. I quickly got frustrated and gave up on that B (until my ex-wife sold it).

I think I'm actually giving my local garage MORE business now than I did way back when, because there are some things I just can't do, and some things he can get cheaper than I can. Plus I'm helping Moss and VB and some other businesses too. So, if I'm typical, I think they might make less on each customer, but they have more customers overall. Does that make sense?

I'm not so sure that the internet has been the major factor that led to their demise but some impact is undeniable. I really think that a lot of the joy in owning this type of car is getting your hands dirty and not looking at a series of electronic boards that you can't fathom.
My first Brit was a 61 TR3 in the mid 80's and I had to rely a lot on the manuals, my dad (a big Healy fan) and friends. Moss and VB were THE source There were some local shops in So. California who specialized in European makes..one in particular was a hungarian guy who looked more like a symphony director..always wore a swater even when it was 100 degrees outside. He was a magician with twin SU's.

If the internet has done anything, it's allowed the tribal knowledge to be imparted to a much larger tribe. Just my 2 cents worth.

I think sites like this one might actually help the specialty garages. One of the reasons I bought my B was because I had confidence that there was good online support. So this site helps people like me pursue an interest in these older specialty cars, and, hopefully, keep more of them on the road and in the process of being restored.

For a weekend mechanic like me, this site also helps me understand which jobs are beyond my abilities, and a community which will point me in the direction of quality specialty shops.

My $0.02.

Most likely not. I live about 15 minutes from John and the major contributor to his shop closure is the terrible state of the ecomony in Michigan. Over a year ago I stopped in to have some work done on my B and the next day while picking it up John and I were haveing a chat over the counter. I asked him how things were and he said they were just hanging on. The local state business had all but dried up, and when I looked at the plates on the cars in the lot there were only a couple of Michigan cars in the lot. Small business can afford to have maybe one bad year, but not two in a row. Things have been below average here economically since 2001 and in the last year we have been in a tail spin. Loads of small businesses have closed their doors due to the 15% unemployment, and those working have been pinching pennies. Even someone with the knowledge and experience of John couldn't weather the storm.

No, it's the 20 years since the cars were last sold in North America that is the reason.

John Twist's issues are a tad larger. They have to due with family health, crushing taxes in his home state, a demise of the popularity of BMC and Leyland vehicles. The first is fact the rest conjecture but factual in nature. I would say the toll on shops I once serviced is half now in the past 10 years. Ebay has cut into me drastically. People are willing to squeeze every penny inorder to save while foresaking those of us who sincerly try to help and serve. I make no excuses. Someone operating out of their home, buying in sufficient quantity to get "dealer" prices, has as his overhead the cost of internet service which, like a phone, is pretty much standard fair in most middle income homes. Compare that to a real business, who pays real taxes in all manner and form, keeps his records for the tax collectors, pays insurance for shop and property, utilities for same, possible mortgage and you quickly see selling on 10 margains will quickly put him out of biz. Ebayers have none of that.

Then too legitimate...or shall I say bonafide shops/dealers deal face to face with the unintended consequences. Try to go back on someone on ebay 3 weeks later when the new rubber part falls apart on installation....probably no help. I currently am re supplying an AU customer who a year later finds a single part defective. I cheerfully will replace it.

If CHEAP is how you go CHEAP is likly what you'll get. I stand by what I sell as do my vendors.

That's my two cents....about what I have left after taxes, mortgage, utilities and the rest....

It's a double edged sword. In some cases, yes, the net does take away from the local shop but it also gives back to that shop. How many of us have ordered from or shipped parts for repair to non local shops because we found them on the net.
I sent my dizzy to Jeff for a rebuild.
I also purchased a set of Superlites from Hap.
Without the net...and this forum...I would have never heard of them.

I think the internet has probably helped a lot of the smaller places rather than killed them. If it wasn't for the internet the chances are I would not have heard of the smaller suppliers like Jeff Schlemmer, Basil Adams, Hap, Rick Ingram, Limey, etc. I'm quite sure that most of us would never have heard of or used these people if it wasn't for the internet.

I've found that the biggest thing the internet does is help me spend money. I can find stuff to buy that I probably never would have even knew I wanted without it.

As far as the question of the thread...I believe some will fix thier own cars and some will hire work out. This has less to do with available information than it does the ability, facilitys and desire of the individual to tackle thier own repair/restoration work. There were and still are marque specific clubs, manuals and books to get as much info as needed if someone really wants to DIY.

Probably should ask the guy that invented it...some guy named Al I think??;)

I find that the internet is helping some businesses greatly, including myself. I know I do a lot of work for local shops too, helping them inprove their profit margin and make better use of their time. Twist always commented that the internet helped his busines as well. He got a lot more work due to the YouTube videos he put out. Let's face it - the internet is basically widespread free advertising for local shops, making their "territory" much larger! Parts sales (like what I do) would potentially be very slow if the internet didn't exist - but I don't think that would change things much for our local shops. I think those who failed were the ones who weren't open to diversity such as working on modern cars to supplement their income. You can always blame the government, but what it comes down to is running a business in a way to keep it profitable. It ain't easy!!! The average auto part only has a 10% profit margin. Add in shipping, taxes, etc... and you can see how difficult it is to stay afloat!

At least personally, it probably has led to me taking my car to the shop less, because most things I find I can stumble through myself, with help from this board on the MG, the Land Rover boards for my Series III, full size Jeep boards for my J20...heck even my Sterling on the Rover 800 series boards in the UK.
I still visit the local shops, and I certainly have utilized them when there's things I can't do, but a lot of the time I'm stopping by to just say hello. As others have mentioned, there are certainly other reasons. I'm certainly in the minority being in my 20s and owning an MG...the cars and the folks that were the original era of owners are moving on to other things, or just moving on. The newer cars don't seem to support quite as many speciality shops..or, if they do, they tend to be a bit fewer and farther between because of the specialized equipment necessary for some of the modern cars (ie, the shops I was talking about earlier having to get the LR code reading computers, etc).

Anyhow, the Bulletin board has definitely saved me money, and shared a lot of knowledge with me, I know that for sure. And now that I have a tiny bit of knowledge I try to stir it back into the board every once in awhile too!

Chris

'74.5 B GT
'73 Land Rover Series III
'89 Austin/Rover Sterling 827 SLi
'88 AMC/Jeep J20

Interesting points and perspectives - particularly from you guys who are actually running businesses - I wish you the best! Jeff and Joe Curto have certainly got my business as a result of this forum, and $2000 NZD worth of parts recently purchased from local suppliers because I have the know-how to install stuff does testify to the fact that local businesses don't lose out entirely, as does the $300 spent on a full front brake caliper rebuild because I didn't have the capacity to do it.

Oh - and I hope John's auction goes well....I'm a sentimental collector type. For me it'd be impossible to see all that stuff go without shedding a (manly) tear or two.

Govt and greenie regs.
Anti business climate some states
Young generation general intrest in 4x 4s and rice burners
Loss of intrest in people in 70s and 80s that were original owners of many brit cars
Safety Nazis inhibit specialist builders .

Nope. Quite the contrary.

The internet is responsible for educating the owners of speciality cars about how they operate and who has the parts and knowledge to help keep them running.

Without the internet, many of our cars would be mouldering heaps of rubbish owned by tinkerers and dreamers who would never have the spark needed to bring the car back to life.

With the internet, owners and people who wish to be owners get to participate at all levels in forums such as this one. Many people never actually post, but derive satisfaction that their dream of ownership is shared by others.

This in no way negatively affects shops that specialize in these vehicles. It means that the car lives and the owner stays excited about ownership. That excitement translates to dollars in the door when the owner faces a mechanical job that is beyond them. I think Carl Heideman put it succinctly during his MGB sheet metal workshop (hint, he has another one coming up). "I get a lot of work in from students who attend my workshop. It's great because after the class they realize how much work it is and have no problem paying to do it right".

John Twist's situation is unique, and I hope that without the weight of keeping a shop open around his neck, he will have a chance to devote his time to family and his seminars, both of which he truly loves. Keeping a shop open and mechanics fed is a very difficult task in any market, ask any service writer. Trying to do it in a niche market and supporting a technical enthusiast side career is nigh on impossible.

Speciality shops will continue to thrive. Owners of such vehicles seek experts and are willing to travel to ensure their vehicles are taken care of correctly. Many hobbyists, such as myself will probably only use them when we get in over our heads. But then again, thinking about it. I just shipped a head off to a specialist out east for testing and mild modification. It seemed easier than trying to teach a local machine shop. HMMMMM.

kelvin

In the Seattle area some of the small shops that worked on British cars have moved on to other cars. This is also true if you own a older American car or truck. However, the Internet has helped the small shop that does excellent work. I just had an overdrive installed by Brooklands British. I had to wait to get my car in their shop. They don't even have their name on the building. The Internet and hosting local tech sessions for the local car clubs has given them all the business they can handle. As for parts, I buy from the Internet and also locally.

Internet has only but helped the MG community. Provided excellent resources for parts, quick technical assistance, and even helped some smaller ventures such as Jeff Schlemmer, Jimmy Hilton, Hap Waldrop, the B-Hive, and any of the smaller ancillary type stuff sold. I don't think guys that sell MG/British car keys would make it strictly on a local basis.

John Twist's situation is unique. I do know his wife has some health issues, the business climate is not good in Michigan, the economic collapse of 08 (remember MG's are really entertainment---not cars---no one needs an MG).

I think the ultimate finger to blame for the demise of Specialist garages is the demise of the British car industry. In the grand scheme of things. Sure, there's a lot left, and more people are buying them now than ever, the prices are going up, etc...but it's hard to survive and bring food home to the table for your family servicing these types of cars.

My father was in business for about 15 years from the mid 70's, till the 90's. He had it as a full time job until 1979-1980 when BL was falling apart. He saw the writing on the wall and sold the full time business, just like John Twist just did. He did mail order parts and stayed somewhat active in British cars till the early 90's, but he knew that he couldn't support the family with it. At the height there were days where he sold $1,000 worth of parts and labor! But that is probably not possible in this economic climate. Even in a city like Chicago, with 9 million in the metropolitan area. That has to say something right there.

The internet will be a huge part of the driving force of the MG & British car community in coming years---younger generations, guys like my age, will discover these cars and they will be past down. MG's are nowhere near dead, at all, and with a focus on being "Green", MG's are relatively fuel efficient classics. It'll stay alive for years to come, it has for 30 years, and will for another 30, maybe even longer. I can't wait to see what's in store quite frankly. We have technology to recurve distributors and build carbs to exacting specifications better than new, who knows what will be next with the aid of technology. I am not a very techy guy (only own a computer & cell phone), but am curious for the future and the internet is part of that. :)

Hey Curtis, I'd have to say "NO" to your question.

I haven't read all of the responses, so, I don't really know which way this thread went, but, reading your initial question I have a thought for you.

I sell real estate. FOR YEARS, they have been saying that the INTERNET is going to completely change the real estate business. That ALL of us will be out of jobs because we no longer hold the KEYS TO THE CAR, so to speak.

Years ago, we carried around the MLS books that had all of the listings inside. NOBODY else knew what was on the market unless they drove around every street looking for "For Sale" signs. They HAD to call a realtor.

Well, here we are, in 2009, and ALL of the listings, tax info, foreclosure info, prices, comps, etc. are all just a click away.

But, believe it or not, we're still working. In fact, I PROVIDE my clients, and prospects with the information. I give them a program called "ListingBook" which is a mirror of the Multiple Listing Service. As soon as a home is listed, it goes right onto the ListingBook site.

Sometimes, my clients call me and say, "Brian, did you see the house that just came on the market at --------?" I'll say "NO" and then look at the MLS and see that it just went on the market 7 minutes earlier. So, no, I was in the bathroom and missed it! hahahahahahahahahahahaha

So even though they HAVE the information, it hasn't put us out of business.

The very same concept holds true for Mechanics, especially, "specialist mechanics" like you called them. For years people have had tech manuals, the internet is nothing different, there's just MORE info now, and "forums" like this that add encouragement and more information.

But, no matter how many pictures, how much encouragement, how many tech articles you read, there's still nothing like dirty finger nails, EXPERIENCE and wrenches.

Its not even the economy that killed University Motors. Its the simple fact that he's running a business that has a dwindling amount of customers. Why do you think that Moss started selling parts for the Miata, the Ford Mustang, and whatever else they sells parts for. The business has to be able to GROW. If there aren't new cars being built that will eventually need parts, then you're in a dying business. I think if John had opened up shop fixing ALL KINDS of cars, he'd be thriving right now.

Mechanics are having banner years right now because everyone is FIXING their cars, rather than buying new. Every mechanic that I know is so busy that they could work all 7 days of the week, and stay busy everyday.

So, that's my take. To me it makes sense, what say YOU?

B

I would also think that the internet isn't harming small speciality businesses that much. It has almost eliminated a lot of small swap meets and such around the country, easier to sell something on e-bay or craigslist at any time of year and to a wider market as well, but the small shops are mostly going away because of the age of their owners. Let's face it, most of us are above middle age now and getting ready for retirement if not already. Why do we expect people like John not to retire in the same manner we did? Most small business won't survive the loss of the founder, others don't have the passion and drive to work the hours needed to make such a business work. We lost one of the best British car shops in KC a few years ago, they're still in business, but now only do work on other imports as the British car market just wasn't large enough and didn't pay well enough to keep the specialist mechanics on staff. And the owner is now just trying to make enough money so that he can sell the business and take his well earned retirement with his wife when he can. Add in the weak economy and it's no wonder that a lot of small speciality businesses dealing with LBCs aren't packing it in rather than lose their shirts trying to wait out the recession.

Oddly enough, this same question came up on a musicians' forum that I frequent. The poster blamed the Internet and Big Box stores for the demise of the "Mom and Pop" music stores. I have a friend who runs just such a store. He has survived the internet and Big Box stores. He found a niche market that he could fill and concentrated on that. He developed an internet presence and used Ebay to sell instruments all over the world. He worked his butt off to get access to the local schools and sell band instruments, too - specializing in used band instruments - and provides a trial return period and service on everything he sells. He teaches guitar, mandolin and harmonica and networks with other teachers to provide lessons on other instruments. He formed a band and plays gigs. In the words of Clint Eastwood, he "improvised, adapted and overcame". It took hard work and imagination, but he has done it well enough that he opens on Saturday by appointment only and is closed on Mondays. And one other thing - he is legally blind. He has two sons in college also and his wife doesn't work except for pro bono stuff on a local organic farm. He didn't blame the internet - he found a way to use it.

There are a lot of specialty shops out there. Just fewer & fewer that work on old British cars. When I was a kid there were a lot of places that would work on a Model A. Now it's just specialty shops. It used to be almost impossible to find someone to work on your Japanese car, & performance parts? Forget it? Now there's a 'Tuner' shop in every town. They'll work on my 20 year old hot rod Civic but they aren't interested in my 36 year old hot rod MGB. It's called progress.

The internet is both a boon and a bane. It depends on where you are standing. I restore cars, and most of my business comes from my web site, which I built about 15 years ago. So it has helped me. There was a local motorcycle shop that sold aftermarket parts for HD bikes, and their business dwindled until they quit, and they blamed it on the internet, and catalogs from J&P cycles, Bike Bandit, Vtwin, etc. I dont try to sell parts, as customers can find them cheaper on the internet, but they cannot find service.

I'm going to cast another vote for the internet helping. I would never have jumped into MGB ownership if it weren't for the scads of information available online. And yes, on one hand I will be buying parts and doing basic repairs/maintenance myself but more complex tasks will call for a visit to a local shop... if I can find one nearby!

Kevin