Legal to shoot this bristish "CAR"?

Bad to worse on this freakin thing.

At least the car would start and idle before. I swapped out the distributor and now when I TRY to start it... BANG!! huge backfire through the exhaust. I checked the 1342 wires, rotor goes to terminal for cylinder 1. I was better off with my junk distributor...

can anyone give me a clue to the insight of making this pos RUN?

dwell is on at 60... set the crank to the timing marks, piston one was at top of cylinder, rotor was pointing to #1 wire... moving the distributor had no effect on the car starting.

/end raving lunatic rant



Post Edited (03-05-05 11:07)

Could you have it set up for 1342, but in the wrong distributor rotation direction?

Rod

Sure it's legal, as long as you don't have a local ordinance against discharging a firearm in the city limits. Sure sounds like it's out of time. I've always used the static timing procedure using a test light described in the Haynes manual. Basically hook your test light to the points lead wire with the motor at TDC compression, turn the key on and advance the dist until the light comes on. That should get it close enough to start. Good luck.

Ryan

make sure the distributor isn't 180 degrees out and that you don't have the coil wires reversed

coil wires reversed? there's one coil wire that goes coil to center of distributor cap... there's another that goes from the coil to the side of the distributor. Those haven't changed from the coil end. All I did was pull the old dist. out and slide the new one in. The dist. won't fit in more than one way. The rotor is turning the right direction and the wires are the same on the cap as when it started last night. ONLY thing changed is this rebuilt distributor. I even swapped out my points and condeser from the old distributor. If you have the timing mark on the crank at the timing marks, then that's where it needs to be? with the piston #1 UP? or is that wrong?

Your distributor is probably 180 degrees off. You are at TDC but just not on the compression stroke. The pistons go up and down in the cylinder two times for each firing of the spark plug.

Take dizzy out and rotate exactly 180 degrees. When the #1 is at TDC the rotor should be pointing at or around the #2 cylinder at about 2 oclock on the dizzy rotation then it'll rotate backwards to #3, then #4, then #2 then back to one.

This thing is driving me crazy. I've pulled the plugs a billion times, checked coil wires, looked at the piston in the cylinder while the timing mark is at tdc... rewired the cap, spun the distributor... swapped back to other points and condensor, mixed points with other condesor, vice versa, I'm putting it all back together now... pulling the plugs out with the wires on, see if there's any spark anymore... I know MY spark is out and the car is nearing it's new home at the curb with a title taped to the window.

need the address?

As I recall, you can't install the distributor 180º out -- the drive is offset to prevent it. It IS possible, however, to assemble the distributor 180 out (ask me how I know!) If the rebuilder wasn't paying attention.....

Here's how you eliminate this possibility. Take off the valve cover. Turn the engine by hand (might help to remove the spark plugs) until the valves on #1 are rocking and the mark on the damper is lined up on the TDC index on the pointer. At this point, your finishing the exhaust stroke and about to start the intake stroke. Now, turn the engine over 360º (one revolution) until the mark lines up with the index again. Now you've just finished the compression stroke and are about to commence the power stroke. (Remeber that the cam and distributor turn once for every two rotations of the crank.) Check to see where your rotor is pointing. If it's around 1 o'clock, it's right with the world and you can static time it and button it back up. If it's pointing to about 7 o'clock, the distributor is put together backwards. You can then: 1. return the distributor as defective and get another, B. take it apart and put it back together with the top part (the bit with the points cam) rotated 180º relative to the shaft, or III. live with it and move the wires. For option III, just put #1 wire on the cap to line up with the rotor and follow the firing order counterclockwise around the cap from #1. Static time it and button it back up. Hopefully, it will then crank up and run for you!

It might be worthwhile to verify the low-tension leads on the coil. + to the switch, - to the distributor. It will work the other way, but not as well.

HTH!

Remember, #1 is at TDC with the timing mark aligned TWICE during the engine's rotation - once during the compression stroke, and one during the exhaust stroke. As others have stated, it sounds as if your timing is 180 off. One sure way to verify.....yank the valve cover. #1 should be at TDC, with the timing mark aligned AND both valves on #1 should be closed. If the exhaust is open, you're on the exhaust stroke - and #4 is on the compression stroke.

Robert, I think the distributor has an offset drive dog and will only fit one way so if you are off 180 as suggested it is because the old and the new dist have the cam plate installed 180 different.
So, start by pulling the plugs (at least number one) and rotating the engine until the timing marks come up to 15 degrees advanced. Hold your thumb on over the #1 spark plug hole as you rotate the engine to feel that it is in fact the compression stroke. Where is the rotor pointing? That's #1, so install the other wires 1342 counter clockwise. Double check the point setting gap with a feeler gauge -- target 15 thou. If you have a simple test light hook it to the points lead and to ground and rotate the distributor until the light just comes on. Now slowly rotate the engine by hand and see if the light comes on again when the timing marks align at 15 degrees. If so put on the cap and try to start.
Hope this helps.
Dennis

Sorry to repeat what other, faster typists have said above.



Post Edited (03-04-05 15:26)

well now it's getting NOTHING... Ever since that one first backfire. I've pulled the plugs with wire on one, no spark... pull the wire from coil to dist. center... at the dist side.... crank it over, no spark at the block from the coil. Is there a fuse? Did I just as a coincidence lose my coil? it's some bosche blue coil.

I'm going to run down and pick up another coil I guess... see if that does anything... also, with the pistion up and TDC on the crank pulley, the rotor is never around 1oclock... assuming 12 o'clock is straight up towards the hood?

Robert, don't rush to buy a new coil. If you have a Haynes manual go to the ignition section and follow the engine won't start tests for the coil. Take your time. you can do this!
Dennis

Are you sure the points aren't grounded? That's the most popular way to have the problems you describe. Bad condensor is 2nd most popular.....

Double check the connection where the wire from the condensor meets the points.....been there, done that.....

Robert,
I would recommend nothing less that .375 H&H Magnum; .416 Jeffries if you feel there is any chance of the MG charging. Any fine British Double rifle would work, be it BSA, Whitworth, or Holland & Holland. Stay away from the lesser calibers, ie. .303 S.M.L.E., .458 Webley, etc. - Those just make them angrier!
Seriously - I understand your frustration; it's just a machine - something else must be the problem. Everyone has given better advice than I ever could have thought of by myself. I even learned a lot from this problem!Good luck.

I've found that the only way to really enjoy this hobby is to know when I need to bite the bullet (no pun intended) and let someone else fix it. I don't want to have bad thoughts when I think of my car. If it gets frustrating I just dump the problem on my mechanic. It's well worth the money, at least to me.

OK, so, what's with the points being grounded? There's the one post where the condensor wire and some other brown one goes... Here's some pics of the timing mark, valves and distributor... Anything obvious that I don't know?

Ok, heres you check list. First make sure you have current at the positive side of the coil. Next check for pulsating current at the negative side of the coil while turning the engine over. If that doesn't happen you have the points installed wrong. They are grounded. or not opening. Once you get you spark back. Take the valve cover off and rotate the engine to the timing make at TDC with #4 exhaust and intake rocking. That is when #1 is on the compression stroke. Where ever the rotor is pointing that's #1. I suspect who ever built that distributor didn't mark it to how the drive dog goes back on, and they have it installed 180 degrees out from what your old distributor was.

Thanks for the list.. .I'll head back down and check those out.

ok, i get voltage at the positive side... nothing really at the coil neg side while cranking... it alternates VERY low, less than 1/2 volt. I've looked at the points, don't see that they're installed wrong... but, I could be mistaken I guess. Still, no spark from coil center wire...

I'm getting in late on this saga, so excuse me if it's been mentioned before:
Do we know for sure that the main drive pulley hasn't delaminated and thrown off the timing mark? When the pointer is at TDC is #1 at TDC? Has this been verified?

update:

I took the distributor out AGAIN... swapped out the points AGAIN. Now, I'm getting spark (at least the engine is trying to start)... naturally the battery is getting low now... it's on the charger... I have faith that I'm OH SO CLOSE. Weird how the distributor is not lined the same way as the old one.

While I was downstairs, I put the dwell guage on. got NO reading. That's when I swapped the points again. Guessing they were grounded then?

Yep, and if you swap the distributors and they don't point at exactly the same spot your drive dog is 180 out. Ajust your plug wires accordingly and she will fire.

Either grounded or not opening. Did you adjust them while the dizzy was on your bench? It's much easier that way than to do it while it's in the car.

ok, I adjusted the points while it was on the bench, rewired the cap, and ... it started. great... and the best part is? it's still the same problem as BEFORE swapping the distributor!!!!!!

I give up on this pos. It's too expensive to swap everything out. The only thing I can think of next is to put a weber on it... too much money for an uncertain fix... other than that? who knows...

now, it's a big chunk of junk taking up 7/10ths of my 1 car garage.



Post Edited (03-04-05 17:36)

Have you verified that #1 piston is at TDC on the compression stroke when the main pulley says it is?

I've done EVERYTHING that's listed in EVERY post above this one. It's got it running again, but still, it's back to it's original problem of dying when revved.

Grabba Gun and Get'er Done!!!

This may have been covered in some earlier thread on your problem -- but, if it is backfiring upon revving have you checked the oil in the carb dampers?

Are you sure you're getting fuel with sufficient pressure to the carbs? Have you removed the gas line from the carbs and observed the fuel flow with the key on? You state that it's been sitting in the desert, wonder what the inside of your tank looks like or your fuel pump for that matter. Sorry if this has been covered before.

-- Scott

I blew out the steel line, replaced the rubber lines, replaced the filters, replaced the pump, rebuilt the carbs... only thing I guess next is that the carbs are worn or something.. In another post, I mentioned that I can't get that Lift Pin test to work on the front carb... always says it's lean. Dunno how to correct that... turning the mixture screw all the way still gives the same thing.

Short of spending $500 on a weber kit just to SEE if that's it? I've got no clue.

The pump is the Moss Motors SU type, but with modern components, not points. I pulled the hose from the carbs... fuel pumps clean and steady. Pump shuts down when there's no draw on it....

Have you tried lifting the carb piston with your finger just to see if the piston moves?

Yup... the piston moves... even moves when I rev the engine. they both raise up... then settle together as the rpm's drop.

You have the HIF carbs don't you? I'm not very familiar with them but I would investigate them next, sounds like something isn't quite right with at least one of them. I'm sure you've checked this but make sure your float levels are correct, look down the jets with a light with the pistons/needles removed to see if you can see any fuel in them. Just a thought.

-- Scott

Will tear the tops of the carbs off again tomorrow and check that again. How do I adjust floats? just bend the tabs?

I'm off to Black Angus for a Teriyaki Top Serloin... garlic mashed potatos, veggies, salad, bread and pepsi...

so until the morning . . . DAMN the MG! :)

Sounds to me this is another one that needs the attention of someone that knows what they are doing. Did he say this car had been setting in the desert? How long. I think he is in for much more trouble than he reolize. I have a Midget in my shop that sat in a garage for four years. After a fuel tank, fuel pump, rack and penion, radiator, clutch master, clutch slave, brake master, wheel cylinders, brk shoes, brake drums, front pads, rotors, all axel seals, all hydrolic hoses, pertronix ignition, battery, all shocks,and getting the clutch disc unstuck. She is ready to drive. I had a guy call me today about a Midget that has been setting for 14 years. He said he thinks all it needs is some carb work. They allways tell me ,but it was running when I parked it. I couldn't help but laugh. I told him he was probably looking at 3-4K to make it street worthy. I have done way too many of these, and know what to expect.



Post Edited (03-04-05 18:37)

I was hoping you would chime in on this one, Tom!

Robert!
This is the most fascinating post I have followed on this BBS. I have learned so much! Enjoy the steak, have a few, kick back and get some sleep.
You GO tomorrow, Boyo!!

PS: perhaps the Ten Gauge double is required...

Well HELLO Sam. Where you been, and how the hell are you doing.

Well, Robert still isnt' alone.....my car does the exact same thing as in Roberts video.......going to fish for problems this weekend....hopefully one of us figure this damn thing out soon.

Robert,
The only other thing i can think is causing our problem lies in our fuel tanks. Maybe a chunk of crud is floating up to our gas intake from our tank causing the line to clog. Than, once the car dies the piece falls off the intake...allows gas to pump into the carbs and the car starts back up again. I'm going to take my tank off and clean it out this weekend. I'll let you know,

Curtis

Robert I'm back again and have read through this whole saga and I'm really surprised that no one ever mentioned this.

Has the car ever ran for you?? I seem to remember that it hasn't

There is probably nothing wrong with your carbs or dizzy. The fact that the rotor is pointing in the wrong area is a HUGE RED FLAG for me. Now assuming, and that's what I'm doing, that you, yourself, have never had the car running, OK you ready, do you want to know what's wrong, are you sitting down? You're gonna **** when you realize how easy this is.

OK here we go. The drive gear that the end of the dizzy fits into is off one tooth or gear forward. Here's how you fix it. Get a long 5/16 course thread bolt (after taking out the whole dizzy) and fit it into the gear at the bottom of the hole. You'll see a round thing that has a slot in it that the dizzy drive dog goes into. When the bolt is securly in, pull it towards you and rotate it back counterclockwise to the left and slide it back in.

The piece is #50 in the top picture.

And the angle is in the bottom picture:

I hope you see this before you shoot the car. And of course all of this is assuming that you never had the car running and the DPO put the engine together wrong.

Please let us know if this is it, I'm dying to become the "MG Wizard"

ooops I told you that it is a 5/16" course threaded bolt, it's not it's fine thread.

Brian, define "running"... it's been running for some time now. Idles nicely, revs "ok" . . .til you get just a little bit higher. Then blahhhhhhhhhh... game over....

I put in the new distributor, which is in a different direction on the rotor from the distributor I just took out and used as a core. I got the car running again with the new dist. and still has the same problem.

Would I get "this" far if that gear/tooth thing was off? or is that still something I should check into. Curtis says he's having the same issue as what's in my video. Odd that his gear would jump.

Is there an upper access to the fuel tank pickup? or do you need to drain the tank and go in from the side or bottom?

thanks...

Hey Chris... what's the going price on the weber conversion? :)

It is probably cheaper to get your SUs rebuilt - if one carb is running lean no matter what you try, it may be a leaking throttle shaft. My carbs were supposedly "rebuilt" right before I bought this car (I even saw the receipt from the MG garage), but when I took them apart, the shafts were both shot - on one you could see the grove from across the room!

I am on Spring Break next week and will try to post some pics of the carbs I rebuilt.

John

but the weber LOOKS cool ;)

OK, by running, lets say: Have you driven the car down the street? At any time since you've had it? If you've never driven it then I would say that the distributor thing has something to do with it. If at some point since you've owned the car it has driven, meaning like normal driving to the store for a quart of milk, then I would say that the drive dog is probably not the problem.

But, having said that, he's where we are. That rotor has to point in that 1 - 2 o'clock position or the car will not operate properly. Everything (cam, crank, valves, pistons, spark, points) will be off. Now having said that, they could have moved the drivedog to coincide with a distributor that has the key on the bottom of the shaft in a different place, but that would have only happened if someone drilled the hole in the shaft in the wrong place when they installed the roll pin and drive dog. If you look on page 85 of the new Moss catalog you'll see a Mallor Dist. w/ NO drive dog on the bottom that has to be drilled by the new owner. But I think that you have a stock dizzy right.

What do you mean when you say that the dizzy is in a different direction? Everything should line up just as I explained.

So answer the questions about the car and I'll help further, I hope you see this tonight cuz I'm playing on the comp. now.

Tom,

thanks for the listing on what you've done to your and other cars... any insight on what is left to get this one running? :) Is the carb swap the next logical step? I figure if I swap the carbs out of the equation it either fixes the issue, or it's internal engine or wiring elsewhere. That all that's left.

thanks

Robert, have you ruled out the dizzy and drive dog, are they in that position, just like the pictures that I posted? What video are you talking about?

http://muvvachicken.com/images/MG_Dying_002.mov

Brian, check that out... shows what the car is doing. The pics above are how the dizzy / rotor sits when the engine is TDC. As for driving, I've driven it down the street and back. Low rpm's is fine til it get's up there nearing 3k... then bawwwwwwwwg... studder, shudder, recover... bzzzzz...

OK, I looked at the pictures and I hear the engine it sounds terrible, but prior to taking the carbs apart. You need to check what I mentioned. Keep in mind that the majority of problems are NOT carb related. I assume that those pictures that you posted on here were all taken at the same time. Assuming that the engine is at TDC, but the distributor isn't. That's your problem right there. The dizzy isn't 180 degrees off it's only advanced one notch on the dizzy gear. It's really easy to fix. I would be surprised, very surprised if what I say isn't the problem.

In order to remedy:

1. Take out Dizzy
2. Undo bolts securing dizzy retainer (that thing that you tighten so the dizzy doesn't move)
3. Remover the dizzy retainer and the housing behind it, this is secured by the two bolts that you just undid.
4. Look inside the hole, if that spindle drive gear for the dizzy isn't at the same angle that the above picture that I posted is then you have to move it. By the looks of the rotor on your picture it is clockwise one tooth on the gear too far.
5. If it is, screw in the 5/16" Fine Thread bolt into the center hole
6. Pull on the bolt, it should slide right out, keep in mind that it will rotate as it comes out.
7. Turn it back slightly COUNTER-clockwise, and let it slide back in, into the position that you see in my earlier post.
8. Put everything back together
9. Drive car to liquor store to buy me a beer.

I am almost positive that's what's wrong. It's off just a little bit.

Since you have never driven the car in proper working order, you don't really know what the PO did. That's probably why he got rid of it, he couldn't figure this out.

It would explain the sluggish response and how the engine didn't snap to attention when you hit the throttle.

Keep me posted

Good Luck

Robert,
I disagree with Brian that you need to pull the dist drive out yet. If it's installed incorrectly, it will still run fine as long as you move the distributor to match. In other words, if the drive is installed 90º out from where it should be, as long as you turn the distributor 90º to match, it will work just fine. Likewise, as Tom and I mentioned earlier, if the distributor is put together wrong, you can shift the wires around on the cap to match and it will work. Again, if the drive is wrong, turn the distributor enough to get the timing right.

Do you have a timing light? Have you set the timing per the book?

That said, since you've gotten it to run now and it's doing the same thing, that would seem to indicate that the problem is not the distributor. At this point you could start throwing parts at it until it works, but I don't think that's the best course of action. Sounds like it's time to call in the cavalry -- take the car to a professional and get it sorted out. Otherwise you're just going to waste money replacing perfectly good parts.

Have you sprayed carb cleaner or some such around the throttle shaft ends to see if they're leaking? As John mentions, a leaking shaft would make it lean.

HTH!

Hi: Robert, I know this might sound stupid but , years ago a friend of mine re-installed a gas filter backwards , it would start, and idle but would not supply enough gas when trying to rev it up , did you put a new filter on it , just maybe try a new filter.

Ron-c

I agree with you,Rob. Brian is setting him up for a tail chasing. Where the rotor is pointing has nothing to do with the way the car runs if you have it timed right. Seems like I remember he said he had went through the carbs before. If I were working on the car that's where I would start. As far as replacing the SU's with a Weber. That's is a TOTAL waste of money. You have a fuel dilivery problem. Either you screwed up the carbs, or you have some restriction in fuel flow. If your hell bent on fixing it yourself, and don't have a manual, get one. If you have one set down and read the fuel section several times. When you feel you understand how it works then and only then pick up your tools. Otherwise you will continue to get frustrated. MG's are very simple cars if you have basic knowledge in auto mechanics.

Robert,

I also disagree with Brian. I think you have verified that you have spark especially since it will idle for you and you have a new distributor. The next logical thing to troubleshoot is fuel delivery. I think Ron has a good suggestion with the fuel filter and it is easily verified. Just be methodical as you go through the process and try not to jump around to some other component until you're finished working with the current one. If I remember correctly you identified a potential carburetor/fuel delivery problem a few days ago but didn't follow through on it.

By the way, blowing out a fuel line is not necessarily the best way to clean one out. A very experienced mechanic told me that the only way to be sure a potentially blocked line it clear is to snake it out. It's possible that air will find a way around a blockage instead of blowing it completely out of the line.

-- Scott

Another thing that can block the fuel is if a chunk of rubber got severed inside a fuel line while pushing onto a metal pipe. It then makes a flapper that will block and unblock the flow. Someone mentioned float level up there also. HIFs seem finicky until you get that right, then they are real set and forget carbs, assuming as was also mentioned that you aren't sucking air past your throttle shafts.
Good luck!

Wow, lot's of great info. I did swap the filter, same thing. I've sprayed carb cleaner around both carbs, intake, shafts, etc. Not getting any change in the idle. The filter has a little arrow on the side of it to show flow direction, I'm assuming.

I do have the haynes book and will read through the fuel section. As for the SU's, I took them off after I put all the new parts on and had someone else strip them down and redo them again. My only guess on the carbs is the metering needles or pistons are worn since the carbs weren't completely overhauled.

As for the PO getting rid of it because he couldn't figure this problem out? I hope that's not the issue. He actually died. I only hope it wasnt' from MG frustration!!

Thanks again, I'll get back out there on it!!

I'm no expert here but the one issue I have not seen addressed is spark advance. The engine runs fine and low rpm. What changes as the rpm's go up? More fuel is needed and the spark needs to advance. Perhaps theres a vacuum advance prob or centrifugal weight stuck?

same issue with the new distributor though. Also, watching the timing as throttle comes up, the timing does indeed advance.

I think I would remove the gas tank and flush it out. It sounds like fuel starvation to me or the carbs have some trash in them and don't let enough fuel by to keep it runing. Just my 2cents worth.

see you guys are getting close it DOES have to do with the spark advance. The fuel delivery is at 4-6 poinds I think he said, that's plenty.

The fact that its advancing and the rotors in the wrong place.