midget 2.8 t5

Hi guys, I finally found a 2.8 out of a 88 camero that runs good but t5 tranny does not go with it. Anyway he has a couple s10 trannys. I could swap camero tail shaft if i had information on how this is done. Ive tried our search but no luck on how to do this. Any website on this guys? thanks for any help. Scott

Scott, You don't want the S10 trans as the ratios are real bad. They were intended for a truck with a low gear ratio.
John

Thanks John for quick reply,midget will never take the 2.8 HP its rearend has. I think my midget rearend is like 4somthing to1, I dont know about T5 tranny, I think has 1 to 1 In forth. The way i see this is 5 gear is o.d. But not sure, If i narrowed the s10 rearend that the tranny came out of what would be wrong with that. or for that matter why could i not use any rearend with the same gear reatio the s10 had. Scott

Scott,

Speaking to others (help- my mind is drawing a blank on names- soooo sorry!!) I think that you are best to stick with a Camaro T5 for shifter location but all depends upon final location.

Okay, that cleared up...


The S10 from all understanding had two variants of the T5 for the V6. Generically but not absolute: Early and later.

Early was a 4.06 to 1 1st gear and a 0.86 5th.
Late was a 3.76 1st gear and a 0.76 or .73 to 1 5th gear

With a Spridget, a ratio of around a 3.0 would probably do wonders with either of those.

Also for comparison, the Camaro V6 T5 has a 3.76 in mid to late 1980s and all 1990's cars. Early Camaro V6 and I4 systems had a 3.97 or a 4.06 similar to the S10. With the MGB weight and wheel size, I recommend a 3.42 to give very good acceleration and still have a nice freeway car.

Yes you could find a Camaro tailshaft to install on it but it will probably be quicker safer and easier to just find a good Camaro box to begin with.

-BMC.

Scott:

When I was planning on doing this with a bugeye, my tape measure told me that the tranny to use was the T5 from a V8 and the tailstock from the S10. This will put the shifter in a posiiotn close to the stock shifter. The Camaro tailstock will move you back 8 inches.

I am sure that those who have actually done the swap will chime in with a more accurate location of the shifter.

Pete

I figure Bill Young will be popping in here soon.

I think Pete is right, you want the camaro v8 ratios, but the s10 shifter location. Get a cheap s10 t5 from your source and use it for mock-up, then keep your eye out for a good camaro v8 t5 to install the s10 tailhousing on.

http://www.streetrodderweb.com/tech/0804sr_hot_rod_overdrive_conversion/index.html

http://www.flatheadv8.org/ernie/ernie-t5.htm

That's a good engine choice for a 2.8 with the improved rear seal. Shame about the T-5, the V6 Camaro T-5 has pretty good ratios to match the 2.8 or at least it works pretty well in my car. I'm personally a fan of the V6 T-5 although it's not the strongest it does match the power and torque of the V6 well with its ratios. I don't have any experience with the S-10 box or it's shifter placement other than from photos of other cars that have used that box, but it appears to me to be too far forward unless the engine is set back a whole lot and that really doesn't work well in a Midget unless you do a lot of cutting and loose a lot of foot room. As shown in photos in your other post if the engine isn't set too far back the stock V6 Camaro shifter location works out pretty good, a little further back than stock by about 3 to 4 inches, but still pretty comfortable. I'd still hold out for the Camaro V6 T5, I think it will work better for you or change the extension housing on the S10 box.

Bill..

Bill Young. Yes, thats the name! :)

-BMC.

Thanks guys for all the ideas on how to do this, I called the guy back today and asked if he had a auto tran,and he does, 75.00. Boy that sounds cheap, iam goingto buy it when i pick up the motor. buy the way the trany is out of a 1983 camero. the seller of the 2.8 1988 camero has a stable of these cars as he uses this bodystyle for dirt track racing. His son is 16 and the track wont let him run the car onless it has a four cyl (iron duke) engine. He wont give up the t5 because he says it has holes in back of tailstock to hook up some kind of support brkt. to rearend,(some racing thingy i guess). Anyway guys, what i have now is a 2.8 camero (1988),with flywheel,pressure plate,clutch disk, and bellhousing. and a auto trans out of 1983 camero, Buy the way Brian,do you have the hyd. throughout bearing for the t5 setup? It might help me in this converson. I think auto is an option i might look at but looks like a lot of fab work involved.

guys what am i doing wrong? As soon as i attach a pic, my post is ended, without able to thank all you guys for the help youve givin me. Pisses me off,this is second time this happened. Scott

Scott, if you want some idea of where the shifter on a Camaro T5 in a Spridget ends up, you can check mine at http://tinyurl.com/5a92d. Scroll down a ways. I reworked the shift lever to get it forward some. I turned it around so the bend went forward. But I had to heat it up with a MAPP torch and bend it sideways so it stands straight up. Overall, it's back a little more than I'd prefer, but not bad. I got used to it easily.
John

Looking at John's "Third Rail" project convinces me that my estimates are correct. The S10 tailhousing moves the shifter 8" forward. It looks like this would put the shifter in the perfect location if your engine were in the same position as John's car Maybe John can measure 8" inches forward from where his shifter is and mark the spot for you.

Keep im mind that shifter location is just a part of the battle. The T5 throw might be longer than the midget's and you need to make sure that the shifter does not run into the dash.

Pete

If you don't have a shifter yet, there are two other options I've heard of.

1. An s10 shifter is super long, so they had to raise the pivot point. According to some on this forum, that means if it's cut down, it's a short throw shifter. Cool!

2. A shifter from a Mustang T5, even a 4 cyl Mustang, will fit and it's straight. I just bought one of these, but may take it back to get the S10 one!

Duncan

Scott,

Yes, we have the HTOB that would fit that. I would suggest a slight variation of the unit that we have listed on the website for the MGB due to some minor differences in the Spridget body and connections, but all pretty straight forward stuff. Send me an email or call sometime and i can go a little further in explanation.

As far as the auto goes, measure the width of that thing and measure the T5. This is a huge difference after the bellhousing and may end up taking far more room than i would want to remove from my Sprites if i was converting.

-BMC.

NOHOME Wrote:

John, on "Third Rail" how far back did you set the engine? The rear of my block is basically even with the front edge of the original heater/battery tray and the shifter falls about 3.5" to the rear of the original location. Of course if you set the engine further back the shifter moves back as well. I made a new dash for my car which drops straight down from the cowl and you can see in the photo how far to the rear the shifter location is. If I moved it forward 8" it would definitely be under the dash. I guess it all depends on where you mount the engine and then use what ever transmission or tailshaft that fits best once the engine position is established.
The shifter is hard to see in the photo because it's so dark, but the wood knob is visible just below the cup holder (don't laugh, yes a cup holder in a Midget). The shifter is in first gear position in this photo as a reference. I am tall, so my seat if fully back and I find the shifter location very comfortable with a straight shift lever which is simply the original Camaro item straightened and shortened. I hope I haven't sounded like I have all the answers, I don't and I know it, but I do know what worked for me and my car and what seems to have worked well for John.
Make a trip to the salvage yard with your tape measure and get some real data based on the rear edge of the block and see where the shifter would fall with both style transmissions and then make your choice based on where you will place the engine and what feels best for you.

Thanks again Bill for your help, Are you saying the back of motor where bellhousing bolts is even with the leading edge of the batt,heater shelf? Scott

Yes Scott. That was about as far back as I could get it without having to cut into the footwells at all. Made the clearance at the front pulley very tight. I had to find a single V belt pulley for the crank in order to get some clearance there. The edge of the battery shelf was actually trimmed a bit and there are a couple of notches to clear the top two bell housing bolts.
My goal was to be able to keep all the original features of the Midget such as heater and battery placement as well as all the emmisions controls from the V6, so I didn't want to trim too much from the battery tray. I did manage to squeeze everything in and without cutting into the footwells or the frame members except for the center of the central crossmember where the transmission mounts.

Bill Young Wrote:

And a cup holder! All the comforts of home ;) Actually Carl our club uses CBs to keep in communication on our annual FAT run each fall. This is usually around a 500+ mile 2 day tour through the mountains of southern Missouri and northern Arkansas and keeping track of 15 or so cars is a lot easier with radios. We usually set a pretty quick pace through the twisty parts so it's impossible to keep in visual touch with all the cars. If someone has problems or gets lost the CB really comes in handy and seems to work better than some of the newer devices such as cell phones in the mountains. Anyone looking for a couple of days of good driving needs to come and join us. Check with either the KCMGCC web site http://www.kcmgcc.com/index.html for details or GOBMC http://gobmc.org/ .

Bill Young Wrote:

Bill Young Wrote:

Bill and John.

In comparison how far back from the steering rack is your crank pulley? On an MGB it is about 2" when using a FWD converted to RWD. The difference in distance may be a help when doing a Midget conversion. Also, is your oil pan above the Midget crossmember or does the front of the oil pan clear the crossmember as it would on an MGB. If there any metal removal involved other than in the shifter area?

I will eventually make up a kit to do a conversion for the Spridget. Any info would very well appreciated.

Thanks sincerely,
Dann BCC

Thanks John, from the photo and your description I figure your engine is at least 5 to 6" further to the rear than mine and mounted a lot lower. The difference shows in the interior shots in the placment of the shift lever using basically the same transmission. You added a pretty thick piece of tubing to the bottom of the main rail for reinforcment and your oil pan drops below that, my pan is even with the stock frame rail. So you went down and back to gain the hood clearance and I stayed higher and more forward to save the footwells and chassis from modification. Your transmission crossmember mounts below the body, mine is simply another piece of 2" square tubing welded in immediately behind the original in the center, again at least 2" higher. I notched the crossmember for oil pan clearance, but once the engine was in it's final place I found that I probably didn't need to do that or at least as much.
Dann, I had to make up a lower crank pulley for my car that was a single v belt pulley in order to clear the steering rack and still have room to slip the belt between the rack and the pulley, so less than 3/4" of clearance. There wasn't enough room for the original double row pulley. It looks like John has about the same clearance except his is to the crossmember instead of the steering rack. I had to notch the center out of my steering crossmember similar to the way it's notched on the 1500 Midgets.
Scott, end result for you is that if you mount your engine more like John did the S10 tail housing might give you a more comfortable shifter postion, if you go forward like I did then stick with the Camaro unit.

Kill R B Wrote:

Thanks Bill, for your great illustrations and explainations. Your answer ties into the measurements I've taken from the Midget body I have here. It appears that a FWD conversion would work well since there is a difference of about 1" at the crank pulley between the FWD and the RWD in favor of the FWD conversion.


Dann BCC

Hi guys, well my progess is going well so far, I started striping all the stuff of the the 2.8 (88 camero engine) First thing off was serpintine belt, My god i could lassue a cow with that (air pump,power steering pump,air con,water pump ) I gota think it took half the hp. it put out! Next was all the fuel injection stuff that you could fly a space shuttle with. now i have a really neat little engine that i think would fit in my riding lawnmower,Know wonder its a good chose for the Midget. Guys i have a few ? about the water pump. as i took off stuff off the front of engine i think the water pump runs different rotation than crank,this is not good because i want to run a single v-belt ,any ideas? Mr Young ,you are correct about the bolt patern on bellhousing. I work in a machine shop and after looking at the blank bosses in it (to bring T5 vertical) I could centerfind each hole forsure but was wondering if you might have bolt spread on cad. bottom right hole is way out from the rest,are all the T5 like this? Thanks Scott.

Scott, we have the cure for the water pump rotation problem. BMC does as well. Contact either one of us at:


http://www.britishcarconversions.com/
http://www.bmcautos.com/

Regards,
Dann BCC

Scott, I don't have anything like the CAD drawing you mention. I just used the existing bosses to align the drill and made the holes, tapped to the same size as the others (8mm 1.5 if I remember correctly) and bolted it in. A word of caution, use some locktite on the bolts for a little insurance, mine backed out about a year later and cost me a clutch replacement.

I would suggest doing it as Bill Young suggested. You may find on yout application you may even use it in between the 17 degree and straight up.
John

John Davis Wrote:

Scott, the stock Camaro bellhousing only had the bosses for mounting the trans either at 17 degrees or straight up, no other choices. And you really don't need any other position anyway. You'll have to either run a HTOB or modify the clutch release fork similar to how I did mount a 1500 Midget slave cylinder. If you use the HTOB then you could use a FWD block with the starter on the left side, but you already have a Camaro RWD engine so the starter should be mounted on the right side anyway. I found this photo of the front side of a Camaro housing, shows the dual mounting bosses from the inside as well as the original pivot ball for the clutch fork. This car uses a HTOB which is obvious. The transmission is mounted straight up in this application.

Bill that bellhousing is exactly what i have and i was wondering what your thoughts are about the HTOB unit? Boy that sure looks like a clean setup for gaining frame clearance issues. Do you know if that is a factory HTOB or an aftermarket? Thanks Bill for the great pic. Scott

Hi Scott,

Bill probably just missed this thread. I have not had a lot of time to answer anything recently either...

The unit pictured above is an aftermarket unit.

The stock Camaro from 196X to 1995 used a clutch arm and external slave. In 1996, Camaro, Firebird, and many GM RWD cars and trucks along with FWD vehicles switched to a factory type HTOB. This factory type is not currently a good choice because you can not mix and match items without having clearance issues- too much or too little. The hoses and fittings to the factory units are also not available aftermarket along with Many other issues.

The stock clutch rod and external slave cylinders are not possible to use without extensive modification of the body, which your already doing pretty heavily. Then, if it comes too close to the frame, it may not be a great choice. You can weld and fab up something to work if you have the time and skill.

Now, I am the guy that sells the T5 HTOB kit complete with hoses for the MGB conversion and can figure out exactly what you need for a spridget, TR6 or a number of other conversions as well. Maybe I am giving a bias opinion, but if i am, I will be put in my place for posting here.

We post information about the bits and pieces we sell on our site. Not a parts list, but a general description of them.

base unit:
http://bmcautos.com/shop/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=45

Full kit:
http://bmcautos.com/shop/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=9

I am thinking about offering a 3rd kit online but in the mean time, I have been offering these as a call in- they fit alternative conversions with only one line that you have to fabricate yourself. The B system is a complete to the master cylinder and I am 90% certain that it would work as is with a Spridget too.

Hopefully the info helps.

-BMC.