Aug 20, 2008 14:09:17
US and Poland signed an agreement today to put a US missile installation about 100 miles from Russia's border. So, will Russia be sending missiles to Cuba again? What are they thinking!
US and Poland signed an agreement today to put a US missile installation about 100 miles from Russia's border. So, will Russia be sending missiles to Cuba again? What are they thinking!
Nah, Russia said that all they'd do is Nuke Poland.
I think I hear the sound of that big old Iron Curtain closing again.
Derek, its an anit-missle defense shield, not a battery of offensive missles. I guess the timing looks bad, unless you're Polish and don't want to become a Russian next week.
JNickell Wrote:
......."So, will Russia be sending missiles to Cuba again? What are they thinking!".....
whats to worry, our allies will defend US and keep us safe......they are always there when we need them....
They are purely a defensive missle and it included a Patriot system which is what cinched the deal. It is going to be very interesting what the administration does over the next couple of weeks in back door discussions with Putin. Hopefully they will be talking tough before the Germans and French can start back tracking with NATO. I would guess that Putin's position has to be we can't put any missles in that would interupt an attack by Russia. The key will be to hear from the Germans.
My guess is that Russia will do a similar setup in both Syria and Iran.
JNickell Wrote:
....my guess is Israel will take them out....and Russia won't do a damn thing.......
Derek up North Wrote:
wyatt Wrote:
...me too....I like the way they think........
wyatt Wrote:
wyatt Wrote:
The Wiz Wrote:
Apparently the timetable for the agreement was already settled before the South Ossetia situation blew up...
The Wiz Wrote:
KLUTZ Wrote:
The Wiz Wrote:
JimmyHilton Wrote:
The Wiz Wrote:
JimmyHilton Wrote:
your people????..........OK you guys, lets cut right to the chase....can you spell token???????????? I do not mean to disparage the efforts, but lets be honest, and don't get your knickers in a bunch.
wyatt Wrote:
I agree with Mike every person counts and it is a coalition regardless the size of the force.
The British Prime Minister put his balls on the line to stand shoulder to shoulder with the US on Iraq to honour an old alliance, then promptly had them chopped off when he was caught deceiving the British public over the motivation for the war. Five years on, close to 200 UK men and women have died as a result of the conflict. I don't call that token.
Governments and public opinion in many countries worldwide expressed concern over the motivation and legality of the conflict. I think it's miraculous there was any multi-national force at all, let alone the "token" efforts you belittle.
....Wiz,Klutz. agreed..... now lets talk, and no condesending bull shit..........Russia threatend to use nukes today against Poland, please point your finger at just who is going to stop them,and with what, hockey sticks and French bread, sour kruat and crumpets !!!!! Please tell me who Putin is going to concern himself with???????
.....Wiz you are from Britian, where would you be if we sent the same percentage of troops to Europe as Europe has sent to help us.I am not discounting those troops sent, I am discounting the commitment of our "allies". You guys can get indignate until hell won't have it, it doesn't change the facts.
PS, Georgia had over 2000 troops helping us. They are pretty damn upset we left them out to dry.
SJJ "The British Prime Minister put his balls on the line to stand shoulder to shoulder with the US on Iraq to honour an old alliance, then promptly had them chopped off when he was caught deceiving the British public over the motivation for the war. Five years on, close to 200 UK men and women have died as a result of the conflict. I don't call that token."
"Governments and public opinion in many countries worldwide expressed concern over the motivation and legality of the conflict. I think it's miraculous there was any multi-national force at all, let alone the "token" efforts you belittle."
with your BS reasoning posred above, we should have said ...UP YOURS to Britain and Chamberlin when he said "peace in our time"...... You guys had a chance to stop the carnage before it started.......and ya fecked it up..........AGAIN.........for the SECOND TIME!
Let there be NO MISTAKE....Americans died for Europes G-Dm blunders.
..........take your lectures and shove em.
SJJ..........thats the point exactly........you don't see the parallel........you don't even understand history.
SJJ, here is another parallel you won't see,... how many innocent people died for no other reason than wanting to climb over a wall????.......the Berlin wall. Were they not part of a coalition? Were they not "collateral damage" for no other reason then good men did nothing except bury their heads in the sand.
...you don't get it,........you never will.........Hitler was a wallpaper hanger.............Amadinejhad was just a rabble rousing college student in the Iran hostage debacle...........Saddam just a thug........
auctionwatch Wrote:
wyatt Wrote:
.......SJJ, probably the finest statesman of the 20th century has written volumes on this type of subject. Winston Churchill. An historian of great knowledge and wisdom is Victor David Hansen. He writes without revisionism. He is an excellent study.
wyatt Wrote:
......yup JackMG, you are correct on that point, but it's the larger picture that everyone in their attempt to jump on me is missing......when the sh*t hits the fan it will be MY countrymen and women and our countrys treasure that will be the huge majority killed, wounded and money spent. We always take the pounding, and pick up the tab for the rest of the freakin world. Prior to WWII Japan was a small nation in size and economy, yet look at what havoc they wrought.
I am saying that there is no reason Europe and other free nations can not build up their own defenses and start pulling the own weight. They ALWAYS look to US to save their asses. I am tired of it, the majority here profess to believe in Darwinism, I say great, lets put it into practice and let those who deliberately choose to be weak....perish. Their savings of money and their phony moral high ground of deliberately small and inadaquite defense should no longer be subsidised by the United States. No more should we Americans die for the chosen weakness of others who refuse to defend themselves and refuse to confront evil when they see it.
wyatt Wrote:
Poland, Georgia, Ukraine, Belarus, half of Germany, what was Czechoslovakia are fledgling countries, starting pretty much from scratch since the demise of the USSR, from which Russia siezed nearly all of the wealth and weapons. They have not yet grown to maturity in armed forces development, or in wealth. Italy, France, Germany, even Britain to a large extent were devistated by two wars during the last century that were fought on their land, destroyed their economies, their homes, offices, churches, public buildings, killed a high percentage of their young men. You don't recover from something like that in one or two generations, even with the help of the US Treasury. Yes, they've rebuilt about all the buildings they needed, they've re-established their own treasuries to a large extent, they've re-populated their countries. But, they are still too close to those losses to plunge into a fight where the enemy is clearly stronger with more and better weapons (Russia) or where the enemy has not attacked them...yet (Taliban, Al Queida)
Well Wyat, I have been hesitant to encounter into these political discussions especially when it was all about Europe being a coward and the US having the moral high ground etc.
But let me try to give you a view from across the big pond. First of all, Europe is not a country. It exists out of 30-ish independent countries who all have their own opinions and positions. Unlike you think, they do not automatically have to share the ideas of the US. Making references to WWII is a bit easy. Yes, I believe everybody is entirely grateful for the sacrifices the US and other countries have made for our freedom (remembrance day of operation market garden coming up here in a few days), but then again, it does not mean that all European countries have to agree to US politics for eternity.
IMHO there has been a lot of European (military) support for military operations the US initiated by itself in the last years, although public opinion was very much against. Just FYI; Holland sent 1300 troops to Iraq and currently still an equal number is serving (and dying) in Afghanistan. I know other countries are too. So spare me your moral judgement!
........JackMG,.........give me a break... CHINA.......JAPAN....INDIA.....INDONIESIA.......we can spend the rest of the day doin this. but you do make one of my points...Europe has gotten us involved in murderous mess's time and again, and we pay the price.
Wiz....you kicked the sh*t out of untrained ineffective soldiers on a freakin island,who surrendered en mass, and still lost a destroyer the Sheffield, and then you sunk the Argintine battleship the General Bellgrande with 2000+ souls on board. The Falklands/Melvinas were necessary and I applaud the efforts but hardly some great victory. Wiz, lets fast forward to the great naval victory the Brits had against the Iranian gunboat last year......
like I said, we can spend the whole day doin this, but unless you have the ability to hide history, it ain't going to do you much good.
I don't seem to recall reading or hearing of the US complaining about the great sacrifice we made in WW2 in Europe or how many troops we had there....We just did what needed to be done.
wyatt Wrote:
...and please spare me about Europe not being a single country,I am using it as an in general.
...if you will, here is another opinion, and from a Canadian....."My colleague at National Review, John O’Sullivan, once observed that post-war Canadian history is summed up by the old Monty Python song that goes, “I’m a Lumberjack and I’m OK.” If you recall that song, it begins as a robust paean to the manly virtues of a rugged life in the north woods. But it ends with the lumberjack having gradually morphed into a kind of transvestite pickup who likes to wear high heels and dress in women’s clothing while hanging around in bars. Of course, John O’Sullivan isn’t saying that Canadian men are literally cross-dressers—certainly no more than 35-40 percent of us — but rather that a once manly nation has undergone a remarkable psychological makeover. If you go back to 1945, the Royal Canadian Navy had the world’s third largest surface fleet, the Royal Canadian Air Force was one of the world’s most effective air forces, and Canadian troops got the toughest beach on D-Day. But in the space of two generations, a bunch of tough hombres were transformed into a thoroughly feminized culture that prioritizes all the secondary impulses of society—welfare entitlements from cradle to grave—over all the primary ones. And in that, Canada is obviously not alone. If the O’Sullivan thesis is flawed, it’s only because the lumberjack song could stand as the post-war history of almost the entire developed world"
My point is not to lessen those who have gone to help from other nations, my point is that other nations will not step up to the plate for their own defense, for MANY reasons.
......by the way....one last point..........if the USA were not in existance,.....Russia and China would be fighting each other for the spoils of Europe and Asia......its that simple.
.....hey Wiz, you better reread the reports, they were scared and the Brits had to stop killing them, it was an unequal fight. The Arg Air Force was the only effective fighters.
So....let it, (The Iron Curtain) slam shut...those folks were never of any value to us, or themselves for that matter.
Russia needs a de-stabilized world to keep oil prices high. That revenue is its economic life blood. A stable world drops oil prices. Evidenced by the fact that the price of oil is up over $120 a barrel when it had rapidly dropped to around $110 recently.
Russia destroyed the railway in Georgia that carries three times more oil than passes through Russia's pipeline. Georgia is pro-west.
If the Ukraine is accepted into NATO quickly and this signing of the defense shield, I think Russia is placed in an interesting situation.
blackmgb Wrote:
Just be careful what we ask for.
NATO worked with an attack any of us, you attack all of us. Georgia wants in. If they were in, per NATO we'd be committed attacking Russia. Something we don't have the horsepower to do. Instead after a few days Condalica Rice uses forceful diplomatic language. We can't realisitically do squat about in force wise.
The ABM system with Polish radar. It's to shoot the missle down primarily before they are coming down over North America. The capability is for the odd loose cannon shot. Even if it works, a big if, a serious volley would overwhelm it. Not a deterent for the Russians going toe to toe with us.
Georga isn't in NATO because as a group, NATO didn't want them. Prefer as a buffer state.
The Patriot system, as an ABM, is sort of OK for point defense. But the analysis on the Isreali application was it actually increased the amount of damage, hitting Scubs and increasing the debre pattern. Of course, the Iraqi's were shutting blanks intentionally. Loaded with gas, the response would have been nukes (Isreali, not ours). Loaded with a heavy warhead, they wouldn't have the range.
footster Wrote:
wyatt Wrote:
Rich,
Thank you for saying that. Wyatt's actions/words make me ashamed that I share a nationality with him.
...no problem Rich in Vancouver,....the quote I printed is from one of your fellow Canadians,....Mark Styne............
the rest of the world can enjoy their disgust,doing disgusting things is what they have given us in the 20th century,.....now please point out where I say nobody else dies but American soldiers. I have said my condolences.I have pointed a finger,and I am accurate.
The bottom line R i V....is that we bear the brunt of the worlds safety. If its more dangerous being in the Canadian army, then ask yourself why. Where is it written that you cannot have the worlds finest military..........Where is it written that you cannot spend less on other national interests and take more responsibilty in protecting yourselves, and depending less on the American tax payer and the American soldier. Where is it NOT written in your daily rags that America is a blundering behemoth and foolish for NOT following the more "civilised" Canadian way. RiV, I live in Michigan, I watch the CBC. I am fully aware of what is said in your news and editorials, and your Gov't financed comedy shows about...."Americans".....the insults fly out of your mouths like spit. I watched some official Canadian Gov't national program awhile back, I think it was your PM or some such....BERATE on national television my country, my government............
RiV....please point out where we spend the same amount of time trashing Canada in the papers or on the news or in comedy sketchs.
Rich in Vancouver,...you are precisely the type of Canadian that "disgusts" many Americans.
the other type of Canadian that we know down here, are the ones who voted with their feet and got the Hell out of Canada for the USA and taste of liberty, and the right to keep more of their hard earned money, and live in a country that earned it's place in the sun. As I said at the beginning of this post, ...the quote you posted from me, was said by a CANADIAN!!!!!!!!!
...Oh...by the way,....I have Canuk relatives in Canada,.....been there since the war.........you guess the war.
After the USSR fell apart anti Americanism went through the roof. Maybe we should let them regain their power so people will remember what the real differences are.
It amazes me how the media of the world, ours included, have successfully made us out to be the bad guy...
Wyatt,
I do not intend to waste my time debating you.
I regret getting involved in this discussion but I will not have our military slandered by the uninformed and ignorant.
I will address one of your points; That of the danger of being in the Canadian Army in Afghanistan. The Canadians are in southern Afghan, Kandahar Province, and have been fulfilling the bulk of the combat role there, out in the countryside, not sitting in air-conditioned tents. Your inference that the Canadians are poorly lead is insulting and shows just how poorly informed you are. Do your homework before insulting brave men and their leaders.
FWIW, our Prime Minister is a staunch supporter of your President, and put our troops in harms way in order to support the US. It appears that the information presented was false but we are fulfilling our committment even as the USA prepares to bail on theirs. We will see what happens after November. I predict the Iraqis will be fed to the wolves as were the South Vietnamese a generation earlier.
I do not care if the words you quoted came from a Canadian.
Mr. Steyn, whoever he is, is entitled to his opinion whatever it may be.
Lets not start throwing nationality around here.
Do you not think I can come up with the names of Americans that you would not be too happy to be associated with.
You sir are a bully and illustrative of the worst kind of citizens of your great country and the least valuable members of this forum.
Get your jollies with someone else
Logging off this thread now, and any future discussions which involve you sir.
Regards
Rich in Vancouver
...Well RiV, thats a shame. Never did I infer that Canadians were poorly lead fighters,and no slander was ment,in the quote I posted,their bravery was mentioned. The PM or other official was from your just defeated party one, but the charge still stands, as he was in a filled auditorium filled with cheers at those remarks.
My charges are not against those in uniform, it is against Gov'ts that are perfectly happy to live under our umbrella of US protection,provide "token" support but maintain what is a hostile attitude toward the US policies, foreign and domestic........
I am not surprized you have never heard of Mr Styen, he is only one of the most prolific of Canadain columnists........as far as resiprosity with other Americans disgruntled at me, you don't have to, they have and will be heard.
We agree on one matter, SVN, it was precisily the same form of leftist thinking then as now in many world Gov'ts,that had us cut and run.If you realize that travisty,then you should be on board with me in calling for a strong military,IN YOUR COUNTRY.I suggest you get over you feined indignity and demand parity in your countrys defense's.
...may I ask, do you disagree with Styens assessment of your military, and the direction of your Gov't.
I spent better than half my life in the border waters between Canada and the US. I loved that time and place and people. We we more than friends, we felt like extended family. This was up into my early 40's. Things changed and I was unable to spend time there. Fast forward 20 years, and go back....where the hell am I????? Who are these stand offish people with their under tone of resentment. Who are these people so quick to point out all our US warts? Who are these young people in the pubs,who upon finding out that you are an American are ready to jump in your sh*t. For nothing more than coming in for lunch?
...One last comment........double this complaint when it comes to the Brits.....who are visiting in...OUR country.
Rich in Van....I haven't lost your friendship because of these posts.....I never had it to begin with.
Wyatt. You answered a lot of questions when you admitted you watch the Liberal POS CBC. No wonder you think the way you do.
Rich... Thank you.
Paul
wyatt Wrote:
.......HAS IT BEEN LOST ON YOU PEOPLE, ESPECIALLY YOU CANUKS, THAT THE STARTER OF THIS THREAD IS A CANADIAN......AND THE MEAT OF HIS ORIGINAL POST IS THAT WE AMERICANS HAVE DONE IT AGAIN....THAT WE HAVE FU*KED UP THE WORLD AGAIN. THE WHOLE POST WAS INSULTING "AMERIKA" AGAIN......
.....so pardon me for noticing....and responding and defending my country.....and shame on you for the a$$holes some of you are. I am proud to be one of Americas disgusting least valuable forum members.........
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