MG MGB and MGB GT Tech Talk
If you havent read it, you should. Originated by a fellow who knows more about oil than just about anyone. Bob Olree, a GM technition for one has made it his lifes work. I think it,s a good read. :thumbup: PJ
http://www.nonlintec.com/sprite/oil_myths.pdf
Oils and ZDDP.fm
This is also a good read, that same article is torn apart: http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1049812
Me? I'll play it safe and continue to use Valvoline VR1 racing oil.
its started:bouncing: I'll get the barbi on then.
Oil should be moved to the politics forum:)
I read the article and it is suspect to me for several reasons. A. he calls it ZDP when everyone else calls it ZDDP.
B. He fails to address new engine builds where profound quantities of ZDDP are needed. C. He doesn't address the known problems to new engines with flat tappet cams having destruction of the lifters and cams due to insufficient ZDDP.
Bob Olree is clearly not in accord with the research I have done, Michael Grant at Moss has done, and a lot of other folks equally competent to Mr Olree.
Oil is cheap, metal is expensive. SM rated oil has only half the ZDDP levels of oils rated just 10 years ago. Ignore the science at your own peril.
Wow, this is going to get interesting. Thanks for posting!
I'm voting with Robert on this one. The article refers to ZDDP being added, then taken away, and SM oil being magically backwards compatible. Yes it will work, but I believe that the body of evidence says we need it.
I don't really know the science behind it all, and the more researce I do the more conflicting info I find. But I know one thing my machinist, and too many big time engine builders have reported increased cam failures on the new stuff, and when using specialty oils with higher levels of ZDDP, they are back to lowwer rate of failures, more in line with what they would normally have seen before the reduction. Me, I'm sticking with higher ZDDP levels, It's cheaper than a failure.
Notice the web site?
Schaeffer's?
this is a brand of oil, like Mobil, Pennzoil amsoil etc.........
I smell a advertisement here.............
Well, if your really picky :smoking:
http://www.joegibbsracingoil.com/products/engineoils.html
Joe Gibbs Driven - Racing Engine Oils
What is suggested by Mr Olree is flat out contradictory to every bit of evidence and advise I have read or heard. His short treatese is too short and fails at several levels to address all the issues. While it COULD be true that SM would pass on an engine of high milage, it is ill advised to use it in a fresh motor either on initial break in or the first oil change. I would flat out say it is critical to have massive amounts of ZDDP in any flat tappet/cam motor for at least the first 2000 miles. The damage without it can happen in seconds on initial fire up and that is documented.
Please note he offers no reference to anything he says, just a rather simple logic line that is just a little too simple for me.
Here is what Mike Grant synthesized along with documented sources and a portion of my own research on the matter....
BY MICHAEL GRANT
The Question.
Which oil should I use in my classic car? It’s incredibly important to ask this question. Why? The reduced level of zinc dialkyldithiophosphate (known as ZDDP, ZDP or ZnDTP) in modern motor oil has been linked to increasing numbers of tappet and camshaft failuresin vintage engines.
What Exactly Is the Problem?
The cam/tappet failure problems often begin with a freshly rebuilt engine that starts making expensive-sounding noises. Inspection might reveal that the bottom of one or more tappets is gone. Instead of a smooth, machined surface, the face of the tappet will look like the surface of the moon. If the problem is the camshaft, it will exhibit one or more worn lobes. Just one failed tappet or cam lobe will create a problem, as the damage results from direct metal-to-metal contact. With metal debris in the sump, here is no choice but to tear down and rebuild the engine. Choosing an assembly lube and motor oil is critical in preventing this metal-to-metal contact. Corrosion, which occurs over time when classics are not driven, is another serious issue. Normal motor oil is designed to lubricate, not to coat or protect metal surfaces from corrosion. All oil absorbs moisture from the atmosphere. Running the engine will eliminate this moisture, but leaving a car to sit for extended periods of time will lead to corrosion. Using an oil product that forms a clinging protective film on the exposed metal parts can minimize this problem. If the oil contains special corrosion inhibitors, all the better. Repair shops specializing in British cars have been dealing with these issues for years, and most have developed a combination of parts, machine work, engine prep and lubricants to reduce these problems. Many shops cite assembly lube, oil and the amount of ZDDP in the oil as major concerns.
What Is ZDDP?
Zinc dialkyldithiophosphate is an oil supplement that has served as the primary extreme pressure (EP) ingredient in all quality motor oils for the past 70 years—until recently. What does it do? When exposed to heat and pressure, ZDDP forms a protective film on metal surfaces that prevents parts (cam lobes and tappets, for example) from making metal-to-metal contact.
Why Do I Suddenly Need ZDDP?
ZDDP has been phased out because it damages catalytic converters. Small amounts of zinc and phosphorus in the ZDDP coat the catalytic material, reducing the effective life of the converter. The ZDDP level in motor oil was reduced from 0.15 to 0.12 percent (1,500 to 1,200 PPM) in 1993, and further reduced from 0.08 to 0.06 percent (800 to 600 PPM) in API SM-grade oil in 2004. But is this level enough for an older engine, especially when it isn’t run frequently? And is it enough to protect the cam and lifters in a freshly rebuilt older engine during the critical break-in period? The experience of hundreds of professional engine rebuilders, cam manufacturers and restorers indicates the mandated ZDDP level is not enough. The Engine Builders Association concluded that 75 percent of reported cam/tappet failures were due to the reduction in ZDDP. Association Technical Bulletin 2333R (November 2007) says current engine oils used by engine manufacturers in new car production should not be used for initial flat tappet/camshaft break-in. It recommends adding additional zinc for camshaft and lifter break-in. Most cam manufacturers also have specific instructions regarding assembly lube and break-in oil, citing cam/tappet failures.
So What Should I Do?
The following guidelines can help you prevent cam/tappet failure and protect your engine.
Initial Break-In Period (First 30 minutes):
Use oil with ZDDP at 0.14 to 0.15 percent by weight (1,400 to 1,500 PPM) to provide the additional protection needed to maximize the chances of a successful cam/tappet break-in.
First 500 Miles After Initial Break-In:
After that initial 20- to 30-minute break-in period, change the oil and oil filter. The oil you run after break-in will not need as much ZDDP; 0.10 to 0.12 percent ZDDP will provide protection without risking chemical corrosion.
Second 500 Miles After Initial Break-In:
After the first 500 miles, change the oil and filter again, using oil with the same ZDDP level, 0.10 to 0.12 percent.
After the First 1,000 Miles (Car Driven Infrequently):
If you don’t drive your car once a week for 30 minutes or more with the oil between 170 and 200 degrees, consider using oil formulated specifically for classic cars. This oil has a mixture of additives designed to deal with the moisture, corrosion and acids in engines that sit for extended periods of time. Change your oil every 3,000 miles or every six months, whichever comes first. If you live in an area with high humidity, change the oil and filter four times a year.
After the First 1,000 Miles (Car Driven Frequently):
If you drive your car once a week for 30 minutes or more with the oil between 170 and 200 degrees, you have more options. Driving the car frequently will minimize the amount of acid, water and water vapor in the crankcase, and that will limit the corrosion and subsequent pitting of the cam lobes and lifters. Using 20W-50 API SM oil with 0.08 percent ZDDP can be fine, but if you are more conservative, a ZDDP level of 0.10 to 0.12 percent will provide additional protection. BM
The above article may be seen on page 21 at this site.
http://www.britishmotoring.net/current_issue/2009_Winter.pdf
The details of Mr. Grants research maybe found at this site.
http://www.britishmotoring.net/current_issue/BritishM-0901_How-To_full.pdf
I include the following only for those who wish to have a starting point to investigate the issue. Contacting manufacturers for direct comment is the best research tool I know. Legitimate makers normally have a tech person available. If they can't or don't answer specifically to the question of the additive, I would simply dismiss ever buying their product for the vehicle in question as in the following dated material:
API ratings: http://www.aa1car.com/library/API_ratings.pdf
A surprisingly unbiased report regarding types of oils:
http://www.machinerylubrication.com/article_detail.asp?articleid=752
Keep in mind that nearly all magazine articles I read are subtle if not blatant promotions for the publisher’s advertisers. Still this brings some clarity to the matter even if it tends to be somewhat promotional.
http://www.hotrod.com/techarticles/engine/flat_tappet_cam_tech/index.html
In talking with various folks trying to gather more fact than fiction I ran into the following as regards Mobil 1 oil. I have Ashland's (Valvoline) Technical Director Thomas R Smith's paper in front of me, wherein it states, "Mobil 1 5W-30 does not meet minimum API SM or ILSAC GF-4 specifications because of its inferior performance in the Sequence IVA wear test." http://www.imakenews.com/lng/e_article001295961.cfm?x=bdSbqlq,b186n0qP
ILSAC=International Lubricants Standardization and Approval Committee
API=American Petroleum Institute
Each set standards and certify oil blends. It is speculated that were it any other than Exxon Mobile the "splash" would be MUCH greater. The facts stand and Exxon/Mobile have to date done nothing but challenge Valvoline for proof. That (the proof) went public year’s end 2008.
API SM (ILSAC GF-4) have minimal ZDDP which appears insufficient for freshly built flat cam engines.
The apparent proven allegation that Mobile 1 fails to meet its own specification may be of a concern to its users.
Just because it says synthetic is it? http://faq.f650.com/FAQs/OILFAQ.htm
Synthetic vs. Mineral Oil
Back in 1998, Mobil filed suit against Castrol for falsely advertising Syntec oil as synthetic, when in fact it contained a highly hydroprocessed mineral (Dino) oil instead of a chemically synthesized basestock. Due to the amount that the mineral oil had been chemically changed, the judge decided that Mobil lost that suit. As a result (except in Germany), any oil containing this highly hydroprocessed mineral (Dino) oil (currently called Group III basestock by the American Petroleum Institute) can market themselves as a synthetic oil. Since the original synthetic basestock (polyalphaolefin or PAO) costs approximately 3 times as much as the Group III basestock, most of the oil blenders switched to the Group III basestock, which significantly increased their profit margins (the price of synthetic oils didn't drop, as I recall, to accommodate this cheaper basestock, which makes up >70% of a bottle of oil). In Europe, blenders still need to use some PAO in order to meet the toughest ACEA specs. In the US, Mobil 1, Amsoil, Red Line and Royal Purple are the only ones I am SURE OF still using PAO*. If you can get a material safety data sheet (MSDS) for the oil you are interested in, look for PAO or polymer or oligomer of 1-decene as a component for a tip-off. Synthetic blends contain some amount (not defined, as far as I know) of synthetic basestock. The small amount of viscosity modifier present in most multi-grade oils probably fulfils this requirement, making synthetic blends another profit centre for the oil blenders.
Blending Oils
PAO-based and mineral oil-based oils are compatible. There are a few synthetics that are not (these are ester-based oils, not suitable for or sold for everyday driving). Again, check the MSDS. However, there are at least 4 different companies that provide the additive packages that are blended into oils. Mixing these 4 different additive technologies can be bad (at least long-term). I am assuming that if you stay with the same brand/company's oil (Synth vs. Dino) there shouldn't be too much problem, but mixing oils is not a good practice.
Synthetic basestocks
There are 4 major PAO producers**: BP Chemical (merchant supplier), Chevron-Phillips Chemical (merchant supplier), Neste (European merchant supplier), Exxon-Mobil (mostly internal use by Mobil). Of course, most of the big oil companies (and a few others) produce the highly hydroprocessed mineral (Dino) oil synthetic.
(*This may not be true in all cases of Royal Purple
**The list is longer than 4
RK)
If you have read this far I would add in closing you are obviously concerned. There are laboratories across the US capable of analizing your used oil to report on the condition of the particular oil and your motor. This is only one I found and I have no connection. The practice has been common for fleet managers for many years but is now offered to the general public.
http://www.polarislabs1.com/
http://www.analaboratories.com/commonrootie/whatisoa.asp
http://www.blackstone-labs.com/
http://www.lubriport.com/supplies_select.php
Robert thank you for all this information. I find this discussion very helpful and I will read your references.
