MGB: Political Off Topic

I guess I'll throw my 2 cents in for what it's worth (.02). This Political forum represents all that is wrong with American politics and leadership today. Everyone posts that it's all in fun with their posts, but I don't think most of you think that way. Some of these posts border on ridiculous and maybe some people are just yanking the chain of others to get a response, but maybe they actually believe some of the crap they post. Much of it is caustic hearsay and not based on the actual issues themselves. Sound familiar? It's a problem that is being played out in the media and also with the parties themselves. Politics has always been divisive to a point. However, with the "gotcha" politics that has been developed and honed on 24 news coverage and youtube, how can the country ever move forward? Even the parties can't get a consensus among themselves. Clinton had a Democratic Congress & Senate and ended up losing it. I really don't blame Clinton, the party was not cohesive and bickered amongst themselves and couldn't get anything done. So Bush inherits a Republican legislative body and guess what? He loses it. Now we have a Democratic legislative body and they are hardly moving together. When do American's work together for the common good? I realize we will have differences, but when do we try to find common ground? It is my opinion that whether or not Obama or McCain gets elected it won't mean a hill of beans. If Obama gets elected he'll have to deal with members of Congress who will want to pull him so far left that nothing will get accomplished and it will cause power plays within the party. If McCain gets elected, good luck to him. The President and Congress are at all time approval lows, will a new President fix that? For how long? Here we are in a financial crises and so many Americas are too busy pointing fingers at who they think is responsible instead of really looking into the issue. Congress puts in place a $700,000,000 financial aid package, but our Congress won't vote for it until it has more pork. By the way, don't be surprised if the $700,000,000 is not enough! More pork will be required if more money is added. Where's the leadership in this? Instead of pointing fingers, maybe it could be that many are responsible from all political persuasions. Maybe because of the complexity of the crisis you probably will not find one smoking gun, but you might find out there were several triggers pulled?
Anyhow, I've been frustrated with politics in general and I know I don't have to read some of the silly posts on this forum. I do read less on this forum now, but I still will open up a thread and read some ridiculous stuff and shake my head. I read one tonight that led to me posting this thesis. Forgive me, but I'm really frustrated with the gotcha attitude out there. Where is the leadership? Well if the Candidates' core constituency is represented by what I read in this forum, we're in trouble. I better get back to the fun of M.G. ownership and get off this soapbox, but I just couldn't help myself. What do you think?

Nothing trivial, but the 700,000,000 should read 700,000,000,000. We had to bail them out in the billions, if it were the millions Washington wouldn't have thought twice.

oops you're right! I thought it my mind, but was short zeros. Thanks for the correction. Although I probably should have written it as 3/4 of a trillion dollars. That even sounds scarier.

Well put John, I am with you.

I am coming to think that the Government, with all of it's promises and entitlements and commitments both domestically and abroad, is just too bloated and cumbersome to continue to function in an effective way. That coupled with a media that thrives on controversy and guilt and an entertainment/advertising industry that becomes more and more effective every day in instilling slovenly and non-productive lifestyles, is more than a human being was designed to endure.

I am as guilty as anyone in indulging myself and my family and I will take my share of the blame for not having made stronger attempts to bring some sense to the political and social lives of my family and my community, but as you say, the past is past and pointing fingers at myself or even at the real social, political and financial criminals now is a big waste of time.

Frankly I don't have a clue as to how or even if I could make a difference in things now. I know that saying that sounds awfully fatalistic, but really and truly I can't think of any way to get the attention of the masses and effectively change anyone's mind or approach to their lives. When one of the two candidates stands on a public platform and shouts to 200 million people that this is the best country in the world and in the same breath asks the population to join him in drasticaly changing it, and there is no outcry against such insane rhetoric I must think that all is lost.

My despair is for my children and grandchildren. They have no clue as to what is about to happen. Kathleen and I might have to endure a few more years of bad times before we pass on but the kids have a lifetime of unimaginable stress and hard times on their plates.

The only good news, for me at least, comes from having read the book and knowing how it ends. If a person can get their arms around the fact that the bad times are only just beginning and that only some folks will come out alive on the other end, the final result will be a good thing for those that kept the faith and endured all of this crap.

Jack

Down through the years, the Congress has manipulated methods to load every piece of legislation with gimme's. And they keep getting larger and larger and more and more absurd in scope and price. It seems to be the only way to get necessary legislation passed. How do you get the foxes to agree to go on a vegetable diet when they are loose in a dark hen house?

Well, Jack & Jack,
I'm not in dispair, although I should be. I mentioned on the forum in June 2007 that the economy was going into recession and sure enough that comment was politicized as blaming the current administration. I was also told how great things were, when in my business we are like the canary in the coal mine. For me the past 18 months have been fairly tough and are apt to get worse. However, although I was young, I remember very well the late 70's to mid 80's and how bad things were. My father was in the same business I am in now and faced some of the same issues. Even with that I am an optimist. America will come back, it always does. We are very unique in the world. A leader will emerge, but as sometimes happens, we need to get to a very dark place before the person will rise. I don't think we're seeing that in our two candidates we have today. I honestly believe that whoever gets elected this round is a one term President. Jack your point of the size and scope of government is really a problem that no one seems able to fix. It may take a true crises to finally get the message across. It looks like nationalism is rearing it's ugly head around the globe and no one is going to help with our debt, we better figure out how to reduce. Hard choices are upon us and do you really think we're seeing these choices being relayed by our current candidates? They are still both old school and campaigning on what they will do for you. One says raise taxes and here's what I'll give the majority of you and the other says I'll cut taxes, but doesn't have a plan to cut the budget. Even if he did, it won't be accomplished in the current climate of partisanship. The only real impact these two candidates will likely have is on the Supreme Court and to an extent foreign policy. Depending on what your thoughts are on these two issues is probably how you should vote. They're both yelling change, but it looks like the same as it's always been, just packaged different. What do you think?

John, I genuinely find it fun and fascinating, and am more interested in politics than I've ever been before. You are right though, lots of people get really worked up and angry, and have hair brained ideas.

It's good to be exposed to different ideas, even if they are crazy. I've been sucked into some weird ideas, then do a reality check and straighten myself out. You gotta consider a wide range, then think for yourself...or at least that's what works for me.

Rod,
I've been interested in Politics since I was very young and I love to discuss it. I can go to a bar or a social event and discuss politics with people from both sides of the aisle. You're right, being exposed to different viewpoints is a good idea. However, both sides have to listen to what the other is saying instead of just playing "gotcha". It seems that's what is considered discussion on this forum and elsewhere. Instead of thinking about what someone else says, many people are on the ready to pull some "gotcha" to prove what? Usually nothing and no ideas get exchanged. Just watch the debates, the Candidates are not discussing things in detail (format won't allow it) and they are constantly looking for the placement of the wittiest sound bite. Whoever has the best soundbites or quick quips wins?!! Looks to me as we're just a microcosm of what's going on nationally. Yep, I think we're in for a tough four years no matter who wins until the overall economic and political crises sinks so low that leaders will emerge because people are really listening for solutions instead of sound bites. Although I am an optimist in the long term, I'm very cynical in the short term.

I agree. You know that being analytical, rational, open minded, and fair, are all out of fashion. They all run the risk of making a person sound like an intellectual, academic, or worst of all a philosopher! ;)

Rod H. Wrote:

Baytraveler, thanks it was good to read an entire posts with your personal views and not a sound bite or cut and paste.

Yeah Richard, I got a little long winded. Cut & Paste and links are definitely the quicker way to post! :)

Rod H said:
"I agree. You know that being analytical, rational, open minded, and fair, are all out of fashion. They all run the risk of making a person sound like an intellectual, academic, or worst of all a philosopher!"

Rod, If you read up on some of the linguistics and cognitive research of the last 50 yrs, it is really a difference between Rationalism (an 18th century concept of how we arrive at a 'logical' conclusion) and the actual way that the human mind works which is different.

I know, I know, huffington post, yatta yatta yatta, but for those others of you who are haggling about this topic, read what George Lakoff says, and hold your nose while reading what he says. You don't have to like the messenger, but you should read the message.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/george-lakoff/the-palin-choice-and-the_b_123012.html

http://www.linktv.org/video/2142

bobmunch Wrote:

I gotta tell you Bob, I didn't get much out of the article from Mr. Lakoff at all. I read it three times to see if I was missing something enlightening in it and I couldn't find it. His message, I found was very simplistic and representative of the stereotypical liberal elite he mentions in his article. In fact he writes in very strong stereotypes of conservatives. Maybe this is the problem in politics. I haven't listened to a Rush Limbaugh type of commentater in a long time, but I believe their musings would read very much like Mr. Lakoff's only using Liberal stereotypes. What am I missing?

Baytraveler Wrote:

The problem is being able to read it and not be fired up over the politics and miss the essential notions about how cognition takes place. The fact that it comes from the sources it does, frames things, which only makes it harder. I too wish he would leave out the politics, but you know, it is politics that is probably the best example of what his linguistic theories are all about. It would be better if he could find a different example, especially in these highly charged times when everyone frames everything, it seems, in political terms.

There are a couple of other things posted here: http://www.mgexperience.net/phorum/read.php?47,926380 , that may be more helpful.

I'll take a look when I get a chance Bob.
Thanks,
John