MGB: Rear Springs and re-arching?

Yo guys, What do you all know about re-arched springs? I've just learned about some of the basics involved and wondered what you all know about it, good bad or ugly?

Mine have been inverted, then reattached (original springs) from the PO to lower the rear end, though they've begun to sag now and I'm researching on how best to regain some lost ride-height, as my car was lowered. It sits 13.5 inches from the bottom of the chrome strip to the center of the wheel in front and 12.5 in the rear (sag). hence the rearching idea - versus a possible other solution, of 2 inch lowered (new) leaf springs...

The front end is in good condition after close examination - the rear end though - needs attention to balance with the front end. Thanks my friends, Dan

OK, Dan,
If your '08 Suburban suffered the same problem, you'd go to the dealer and have it fixed, pronto.

Your '79 MGB needs new springs. Buy them. They are relativly cheap and easy to do.

Re-arched springs put off the inevitible. The DPO should have replaced them. At least he told you something of the car's history.

Dan,
Take a look at the article in the library about repairing sagging springs. It might be worth a shot.

Which springs do you recommend, Jim?

Good luck finding any. They still seem to be unavailable from the regular suppliers. My friend with the MGA has some on back-order even though our regular supplier said they could get some.

My new springs from Brittek, moved my diff to the left about 3/4 of an inch. Ride height is good, but when loaded, tire rubs on dips and bumps. Sucks!

Mike

mbarjbar Wrote:

losmorob Wrote:

I prefer to re-arch original springs than to buy the garbage being produced today.

Dan ,read down the posts for "smooth 450 rpm idle" submitted by David Abbott. Click on his avatar to find his post ( complete with photos ) ,about rebuilding his leaf springs . Dan, I can appreciate that you want to work with what you have, that is the spirit that breeds innovation.

You could put longer spring shackels on.
Doug sells them.
http://www.mgbmga.com/

That's a bit of a band-aid. Better to address the problem than run flat springs with tall (read: flexy) shackles.

I got a set of moss springs middle of the summer, after they were backordered for around 6 months....they told me the supplier had stopped production and that they were resourcing them.

Anyway, the new springs I got say made in UK, and they installed fine, and the ride height measured correctly both sides of the car. I've only got about 200 miles on the rebuild...so its early to tell if they will hold up.

losmorob Wrote:

Thanks guys. Harold Dick, a British car expert here in Portland suggested the idea. He's been in business and well known as a quality mechanic shop - regarding the re-arching of the springs. His thoughts were 'use what you got' before you buy new. As he told me he's re-arched springs before. The spring shop would access the metal and determine if the springs can take being re-arched or not. If not, then I'd be faced with buying lowered leafs by 2 inches. As with the shortage or low quality springs, that prospect doesn't sound enticing - once my car's rear end is disassembled costs may rise for this job. He quoted me between $600 and $800 for the job. Re-arches springs, shocks re-configured (linkages), bushings, new U-bolts, etc.

Since my linkages from shocks to leafs are lost due to the lowering of the car, Harold had a what seems to be good idea, use MGA shock linkages - that are shorter by about 2.5 inches, re-gaining the shock use, with the lowered car - re-gaining the geometry as well - or cutting and re-welding the current linkages shorter. Harold seemed to think the re-arching of the springs will last 50 thousand miles or more.

I spoke to Harold indepth yesterday about doing this job on my car. He has been at this since '62 and I believe knows what he's doing, and he gave 1.5 hours of talk time to answer my questions, which I thought was good - he's a good guy I thought.

The comments from Michael and Robert were enlightening regarding the shift of the rear end due to springs that weren't straight, causing a shift in the axle causing rubbing on the fenders, (not good).

What about doing a quick-job and putting some thick shims to heighten my car - and not mess with the springs? What do you all think about that? I haven't ruled out, doing this myself. It can't be too hard, hell after doing what I've learned on my car. I just have some fear about stablizing my car properly and never having done it, I don't know where to start! Anyone want to help me out if I decide to to this job myself!?

Worn springs won't react to the road properly. They are too soft. I really do suggest re-arching them to the correct spring rate, or as a last resort replacing with new. If you're after ride quality above all else, the worn springs will be fine. For street performance you want them somewhere around the factory setting. On a race car you might actually want to soften them, but city streets are a different ball game than a race track.

Actually, the springs, even though sagged, have the nearly the same spring rate. Spring rate is a function of Young's modulus, which is not effected by the "sag", and spring geometry. Since the geometry has changed little, spring is straighter at static load, the spring rate is little changed. I agree that re-arching them is the thing to do.

Dan, you said that you INVERTED your springs???

Meaning you turned them upside down??? Is that what you're saying??

If that's the case, re-arching them isn't gonna help for very long at all.

Imagine, for a second, a long thin piece of metal that you have in your hand and you're trying to break it. . . . . .

What would be the most effective way of breaking it in your hand?? Would you fold it over one way and push as hard as you can???? NOPE - You'd bend it ONE way, and then back the other way. After a couple bends, IT BREAKS! Simple, simple!

If I understand you correctly, you're running your springs upside down currently?? It's no wonder they have sagged.

I don't think any amount of re-arching in your case will work.

If you don't want NEW springs from anybody, as many have professed to have poor results. I personally cannot comment on that, as I have yet to experience any of that.

Here's what you can do. If you decide to buy new lowered springs. Adjust your PERFECT ride height by experimenting with different sized shackles. THERE'S NOTHING WRONG WITH THIS. The shackles can be any size (within reason)

If You lengthen the shackle by 1", you tend to get about a 1/2" to 3/4" lift. Since the shackle moves back and forth, you don't get the full one inch.

I did this originally because I liked my original springs, but I wanted to STRENGTHEN and slightly raise my rear end about 1/2" I used shackles from a chevy 3/4 ton lift kit and cut and drilled them to the perfect size. This will give you far better location and strength. It minimizes axle shift somewhat because they are far thicker than stock. Of course, they will now be located with two bolts, and two flat metal "bars" rather than the shackle locators originally used.

Anyone can do this if they don't like their current ride height.

No problems at all, if done correctly!

Good Luck,

B

I've always understood that the spring's geometry affects stiffness of ride. A flatter leaf will give more easily to a vertical load than an upward-arched one. Between the flatter leafs and 40 years of use, surely the spring will ride softer. Perhaps I'm remembering incorrectly?

Brian, inverting leafs is nothing new. It's been done for 100 years! I had inverted top leafs on my GTS for a time.

I don't agree with adjusting shackle lengths to level the ride. It's like wearing a shoe with a taller heel because you're carrying too heavy a load on one shoulder! ;)

I called a spring shop here locally called Oregon Auto Spring. They explained the process that re-arching involves. Makes sense, but there's some variables involved; whether or not the springs are worthy of being re-arched, mainly metal wear and tear of 30 years of use. If they're worth re-arching, then it could work well. Though - they said they'll only back them up for 6 months - and that's verbal...nothing in writing? McFly? They could build them for me from scratch, but then costs go up from there. I see why I do most of the work myself on my car!

They want $500 to $750 to do the work.

If I were to bring the springs to them - and they re-arched them cost would be: $150 a piece - built from scratch with new metal, $250 a piece, fyi.

They like the other shop I visited, [Harold's] don't have 'anything in writing' that protects flaws or human error in workmanship - and that is a red-flag as a consumer. I say, [we're living in 2008, not 1908!] Good-ol-Boy handshakes in business are not the way I do things. In writing or no business I say! God forbid something go wrong, what then - too-bad-so-sad! Right! Not! I mean, would you take your car that you spend time, money and tons of effort to someone, (or say) a new car - to a car mechanic and have them do work - only to walk away with a receipt for payment but nothing in writing for workmanship? Yes or no? For me, it is a definite NO!

So, I'm going to wait until I find a place that backs up their work in writing or do it...myself. A word to the wise...get it in writing - even before you commit to having any work done on your B. If they don't offer it, say goodbye.

Well Dan, It's not a new Miata. You get someone to give you a writen warantee on a 30yo car, God bless them. I think you better plan on DIY.
I have my own policy when it comes to this stuff and it goes for new cars too, no time limit and if there is a problem with my work, it will be taken care of. Maybe old school but I've been doing bussiness that way for 30 years and I'm not changing now. I personally wouldn't place any bets on rebending 30yo spring steel either.

Ya know Jim, I thought I was driving a new Miata - thanks for the heads up.

You spent 1 1/2 hours talking to the guy about re-arching your old springs? What's his labour rate/hour? And now you won't give him your business? The guy's trying to run a business and make a living. McFly????

.:

I agree. A reputable shop gets there by it's reputation. Nothing in writing, just good work. If Harold has been a mechanic in the community since 1962 and is highly thought of as you mentioned, I say you cant expect much better than that!

Dan,
Do the work yourself and take the springs down to Portland Spring, tell them what you want and they will re-arch and re-temper them for you. Put new poly bushings in and you're in business. It will be way cheaper than you have been quoted.

In theory I don't disagree with you John. However - the community has stated rules/regs in writing for the city, county and state it calls home - so should businesses state in writing what their expectations are of themselves and their customers, basic skills in business.

Dan - you just took my trust in Harold down a notch. or two. John

jclars Wrote:

Thank you for the lesson in economics. However, based on what your very first post stated about Harold and his reputation, I would have been prepared to TRUST him with some work. The little comment about the jack slipping off the car and damaging the valance was a deal breaker to me because I suddenly DIDNT TRUST him anymore. No economics involved there.


John

It is funny - when the truth is told, it makes people mad. Whether it be about a situation like mine, or another scenario. The truth hurts I guess. We're all sinners. And yes, it was an accident when the jack stand fell off my car while they were trying to get it up on the lift. I won't hold Harold liable and I'm not even going to make him fix it - it wasn't severe, just a little bent. Though, the spirit in which the whole situation occured would make any sensible, astute person stand up and think..."mmmm, maybe I should go elsewhere, based on the disarray of how things came down."

So, it is my right to express what occured, and not be made to feel like the bad-guy or making people lose trust. Consumer confidence is based on the web of business that occurs - and I share that web with everyone. If my part of the web is broken, I'm the sort that will share my experience - not hiding it, hoping it won't happen to someone else. I want others to NOT have troubles, not get trouble. We're living in America with rights to share experiences without the threat of being punished for the truth. There's agencies out there that protect your wellbeing from products purchased, to the police that protect us.

I didn't ask Harold to tell me there isn't anything in writing regarding his work. He boldly told me with fervor that he doesn't put anything in writing by George for anyone and if the customer wants it, then he won't do any work!!!!!! I believe him that he does good work - but God forbid something occurs that isn't 'user-error' in the mechanics of the suspension changes that would occur - I would have nothing to fall back on - even if just for review purposes - whether or not the potential break in parts, workmanship was my fault or potentially his.

At least I would have a pathway to follow - in the event something did occur, hence having a written agreement stating the expectations of the shop and what they cover and the expectations of the customer and what they're responsible for. I'm not overly worried about workmanship, just - I've been raised with sense of duty to what is expected from people I pay money to - and when they pay me for my profession. Responsibility is responsibility. My best to Harold and hope he eventually has a stated disclosure of what is covered and what is not - he'll only become more successful!

I have had springs re-arched and bought new springs. I didn't get any better results with either. There IS NO diffewrence, it's just a crap shoot!

The springs set up in the MG is a poor application of leaf springs. They sit flat well past an ideal parabalic arch. Most spring set ups are far more ached but in the case of the MG it is past that ideal point by design and the rear suspension just plain sucks. It is also the reason why no one can get a left and right spring to match except by dumb luck.

Due to the angle of the MG spring it simply doesn't do much till it finds sudden resistance which causes us to Squint our eyes with dips in the road wondering how far the back will dip before the spring kicks in. A major contibutor to giving leaf springs a bad rap.

I pulled 3 leaf springs and made a mount for Coil over shocks. It was an easy, quick alternatives and every time I take a MG owner for a drive they say OMG this thing drives like a REAL CAR!

So you are using the remaining leaves as a control arm?

Basically, it is a poormans fix which is easy with huge improvement!

Gary,

Does what remains of your leafs (leaves?) still provide enough support against lateral forces? I mean, is is still strong enough to keep the tires from rubbing against the fender on a hard corner?

More pictures would be great too! B)

David

Good question. The shorter springs were only atatched at the u-bolts so they did not provide much lateral resistance. I would have pulled another spring if I was a little more gutsy.

Looks like a good option. You have some adjustability with height, axle tramp could be handled with a track bar. What are you using for your coil over?

gow589 Wrote:

I am out on the west coast fo a couple days. It is a QA1 shock with a 100lb spring. I will look up the numbers when I get home. I had a stack of adapter plates cut but have since found that the sway bar on latter model cars are interfering with the adapter. I have an aftermarket sway which mounts toward the rear instead and is no problem. I am sure there are alternative ways of doing the same thing.

Gray, thank you for your post. It got the neurons firing.

cfrantz Wrote:

Gary, do your suggestions come with a performance guarantee or was there a disclaimer I missed somewhere?

John ;)

jclars Wrote:

Luv ya Dan! Rubber bumper and all!

jclars Wrote:

jclars Wrote:

I spoke to Moss earlier today - and Ken - in their tech department - very astute fellow about B's. The reverse eye'd Leaf springs are being produced at the Moss U.K. plant his research revealed. Ken agreed that the current crop of many of their leaf springs don't hold up and sag prematurely [regular leaf replacements for RB and CB B's]. However, when I asked him about the modified reverse eye'd leaf springs, which lower a rear end two-inches - those are not 'bad-stock' as it were. They're being produced out the Moss U.K. plant and are being re-issued again for another batch...fyi. He said that if a batch isn't good - they're not being re-ordered until they find a better more reliable source of leaf springs. The regular stock, is being produced out of other parts of the U.K., and Belgium - which he admitted have been denounced as not reliable springs from Moss. So, I'm going to think this over - and most likely purchase them. They do come with a 2-year warranty as well, [In Writing]. If they sag within the warranty period - or are mismatched or don't work - then I can return them - and they'll pay shipping back to Moss as well. But frankly, my gut tells me that they'll most likely be okay. They're $210 a piece excluding bushings.