Forum for discussion of the MG factory 6 cylinder, the MGC.
John Warlimont and I looked at a GT today the head is off and redone. The bores look like they will need to be sleeved. Very deep grooves at the top not the regular wear more sort of gouges from badly damaged pistons.
What do you guys think of resleeving with the Healey sleeves?
Thanks
Paul
Paul,
Is this the one advertised on craigslist - 69GT?
If the bore damage is severe, I would be concerned about what other damage there may be. Do you know how it occurred? The C unit is very robust but my experience of rebuilds in general is that severe damage in one area usually means severe damage everywhere. My guess is a full rebuild (excluding the head which you say is done) could be 5-6k with parts, machine shop time, etc. By the time you add in flywheel lightening, new clutch, ancillaries, etc., the cost will be getting right up there.
Cheers
John
Thanks John,
Yes it is the 69GT on Craigs list. I think it's a 68though...according to the car number.
I was very leary of the condition of the bores. The one piston that Octagon pulled out had 1/4" chunks out of the sides at the top of the piston. Good point regarding damage issues in other areas...I wonder where those chunks off of the piston got down into?
The body on this car is I'd say very nice...I went over it with a light fridge Magnet and the only place it wouldn't stick was the right dogleg. A slightly stronger magnet did stick though. The bonnet has issues and sits high on the left side plus there is some fibergalss near the hinge area and the mounts have been riveted on.
Undercarriage looked good including torsion bar mounts and adjusters.
I guess John (Jewar) is doing some DEEP THINKING THIS AFTERNOON!
Good point,John . I hadn't thought of that,so likely oil pump,and bearings and in a worse case scenario ,regrind crank.
A person reaches a point,where a project unless you want for the sake of the project, can cost as much as a finished car,although the project for the sake of doing a project can be fullfilling..
John W
At the price he is asking, it is close, in my view, to a fair starting point for a full resto. I think you would end up putting in $20k or more, maybe less depending on the amount of work you can do yourself. Body and paint, assuming there isn't much need to replace/repair panels, could be 8-10k easily. I still look at projects and think they would be fun to do and have some upside potential, but the reality is, most of them will cost way more than one that is already done.
John, please don't think I am trying to push my own car in this conversation (you probably know it is for sale), but financially you would be better off buying the best restored or sound original car you can afford. If you really, really want to do a resto, then I would be thinking of a price around $1500/2000.
If you aren't too concerned about originality, it might be a good starting point for a GTS replica.
Cheers
John
Or buy a short block from the guy in England.
[www.mgmotorsport.com]
Its hard to walk past a MGC project car and not stop to see what the price is and think to yourself; I could fix it up and........
As pointed out by John "buy the best car you can afford". the next axiom I also use, "the car will cost you more to restore than it is worth". Even if you do most of the labor.
If you are looking specifically at a project car to do then by all means go ahead but just remember the above notes.
Sorry for getting off the thread but I guess what I am trying to say is sometimes you have to walk away.
Ron
Hi All:
After a hard day of flip-flopping,I walked away last night(door is still open a crack) . As Ron pointed out,you get into I can bring this back to life mode and was going to buy a project that I really didn't need because it was available, I did feel and still do,that this isn't a 20,000 project unless your plan is to make it a show winner,but I haven't done one.Thanks for all the help and advice and back to the B.
John
I have blocks here in Iowa and shipping from UK would be massive. I for one don't think resleeves are the best route unless it is a sleeved engine such as TRs. I think I can get pistons up to 0.060 but then you will have to resleeve if they wear down. How much does the shop think needs boring? That's the first question. Is there damage to more than one hole?
I also agree, a full engine restoration may be justified but I don't know about the estimate given. I'd tend to ball park closer to $3000-4000 US and if there is any good news on the tear down maybe half that....
I too can get proper sleeves fwiw...
Robert
You brought up a good point, but most machine shops want to see the block before they tell you anything, hince you would probably have to buy the car and then hope for the best.
So you have blocks? what other kind of engine stuff do you have, other than the off the shelf new stuff. Just curious as I have a few spare blocks myself but not sure if they are usable or just boat anchors, I usually let my machine shop tell me the good or bad news. But they do smile when I show up.:D
Ron
I'm not privy to the transaction so its hard for me to evaluate, speculate, and make an offer to close the deal.
However, in the scheme of things an engine rebuild is not a bad thing to face. In fact, if documented, it may be the one mechanical thing one can do and recoup one's investment. Not so with tranny, rear end, brakes etc, imho.
When I got my C two blocks came with it. Stripped of the goodies, cam and oil pump but as blocks, these would make an ideal candidate. Very little else. I peddle new parts because of my isolated locale, and the fact I have enough problems with new part quality issues and don't wish to add to warrenty of used parts quality issues.
I am fortunate in having at least two very good machine shops nearby. The one can stitch engine heads and blocks and unwarp alloy heads. The other is rural...meaning he does a lot of tractor work for "budget" minded farmers who want good quality for their $s.
If I walk into any service or parts store and get the eyeroll, I cut my visit short and i don't return. I am too old and tired of thinking I need to defend LBCs. I like to farm out work to folks who enjoy something different other than Minneapolis Moline, Oliver, Cat Diesels, along with the requisite short block chebbys.
In my years I have learned that while there are many variables to the internal combustion engine, especially in the prewar years, its not rocket science to a machinist. Finding a competent machinist is another story.
Back to my point, I think cylinder liners are OK and good if you intend to flip the car in the near term. If I intend to keep a car I might consider, actually have had, a single liner installed. But if the block is beat to the point of needing multiple liners, these are not all that rare that a suitable block can not be found either in Iowa or South Carolina, or maybe closer.
Hi Robert:
My by eye estimate,would say the gouges exceeded .060(1/16 of a inch),it seemed to be on most of the cylinders if not all of the cylinders.There was one piston removed,and the top ring and a piece of the piston were gone on it. Be curious to know what would cause that kind of damage,the only thing that I can think of that would cause that kind of pitting is a broken ring or something foreign into the engine. We had the piston in our hands and got distracted by the rest of it and never gave the rod shells a good look. It is good to know blocks are available,the door is still open a crack on the car,so who knows.
John
The only thing that readily comes to mind is tremendous pre ignition problems and an ignorant driver. As it sounds like the damage is front to rear it makes little sense to me. If it weren't a holiday I'd call my machinist and ask what might cause such damage. If you can see all pistons move, I'd suggest there maybe reasonable certainty the bulk of the damage is atop. But I would not rule out possilbe bent or otherwise damaged rods, push rods and small end bearing damage. Its a tough call but honestly talking about it to the seller may make a deal possible.
As the potential buyer of an obvious problem, I'd say you a cash in hand buyer hold the better position.
FWIW, I only "know" of two piston manufacturers for the MGC, could be more, but there are no known issues to me of poor materials in either case.
If you opt to make it yours I have some ideas I can share. Too bad your fellow BCian, Bill Spohn doesn't way in. He appears to know a lot about red line driving and its consequences.
I share Robert's concerns about sleeving a non-sleeved engine. I know some people do this with rare pre-war stuff, when the supply of used blocks is non-existent. I would be much more comfortable building up a new block given what John W has reported.
I am still curious about the cause of the damage. If the head has been redone I wonder if there was either a dropped valve(s) (unlikely for the pistons to survive without obvious top damage), badly burned valves and running in this condition for a long time, head gasket failure causing ring failure, major overheating causing ring failure (but I would expect more evidence of near-seizure of pistons in the bores)? One other thought is perhaps starting up an engine that has been sitting (part seized) for a while - might explain the pieces of pistons broken off and the cylinder gouging. Any one of these potential causes would reinforce my concerns about this being a major (costly) rebuild.
Anybody else have thoughts on this?
John in Vancouver
If I recall correctly the seller had problems getting it to run he apparently has owned it for 18yrs....hardly drove it.
He did say he had the head redone in hopes of solving his problems...Not sure why the gouges in the bores weren't noticed before the head was done, sure could have saved him a fair chunk of cash.
I did look at the valves and could plainly see one new the others looked used and appeared to be sitting a touch deep. The piston tops looked fine.
We were I'd say rushed with the inspection and didn't turn it over or jack it up. I expect if John wanted we could have gone back and looked a 2nd time.
I am going to stop stirring the pot but a broke engine is rarely a deal breaker in a car restoration unless its a twin cam or of that ilk. To me rust/body damage is number one. MGC engines are around and Robert has all the parts issues covered.
Based on what you have seen and what I know about engine rebuilds I would assume (worst case) you need a replacement block and maybe some more internal parts. I would offer him less.
Now I must still refer back to my first post.
The door is cacked a little, any light shining through?:devil:
Ron
I don't the the seller is telling all the story.
Obviously if the head were pulled for a rework, the damage would have been spotted. I know of no engine siezed which will ever start. I've pulled cars at 40MPH, popped the clutch only to have said siezed motor lock the rear wheels. That was of course after doing it at 10 20 and 30 MPH....(my youth :S)
There's more to this story but I can't guess what. Its typical that a car sitting for years will have sufficient rust to cause about 10K miles wear when started IF oil or penetrant isn't used. Still this is more than an isolated problem.
Its contrary to basic mechanics but possible to have so fouled the timing as to possible have spun the motor backward...but I am getting most esoteric to the degree of being near inane. I suggest a milder issue of somehow getting the motor to actually run with significant pre ignition...long enough to massively harm the pistons and rings but again, these are very wild guesses. In the end, it makes no real difference and the truth of what was done lies with some PO if not this CO....and either or both may not have a clue what they actually did.
I agree with Ron and my own observations, if the price is adjusted to include a total engine rebuild, I for one would take a shot at it. Likewise as per Ron, the rust devil is the time, materials and $ killer for me. A sound body, acceptable interior and top would make me pay up to 5000 US. Having no knowledge of the asking, I can't advise further. Robin Kirk, no relation but a fine reputation by surname I'm sure, is a motivated seller on the East Coast with a properly sorted C GT fwiw. But that is miles away even if the condition is known to be top notch.
My bottom line is, if a seller is reluctant to see what I am looking at, bid a pleasent adieu, and wait for the better less expensive item always to be found down the road. This is still very much a buyers market.
One final thought, if the idea of ownership and the challenge of sorting and resurrecting a hard road and put away wet horse doesn't trip your trigger, pass on and wait for that feeling. That instinct is what has driven this Mad Hatter and with no apologies, I have made but one "mistake" in 30 purchases where I later felt I'd paid too much. And in that case, I simply had not done my homework and failed to look more closely at the market. I am talking about a running rust free $3000 car so even so I was not "burned" badly, just paid twice what it really was worth...1949 Crosley fwiw.
Good luck with your decision! :)-D
I believe there is more to this story as well. The head doesn't show any sign of being reinstalled,if I remember correctly the spark plug holes still had the caps in them,no spark plugs. The damage appears old not fresh. I kind of wonder if with the head off,he hooked the starter up and forced it. I think that if I was to go forward,I would expect a bad engine and consider it a bonus,if it turned out better than expected.One plus is the head is redone. The two other concerns that I have about this car,is no overdrive and webasto roof. The paint is presentable and the body is virtually
rust free.
John
Having a Webesco roof maynot be a negative imho. I'd certainly check for signs of leaks or damage but why not a "semi" open car?
I think you're on to something about voracity. I just don't know why the head work with an obvious problem in one's face...
The stinker would be damaged rods. Its a stretch but possible. The guy may know more than he's telling and there could be a good reason...not wishing to appear a total flake when one suspects he has been very "flakeivourus"...I just made that up fwiw.
Like I said, its really a moot issue. Pull the trigger or take a pass. Rods aren't cheap but anything is doable.
Buy it for $2k, get a new block if you have to, send the brake bits to White Post, the boosters Kirk's Auto, etc.
I consider the Webasto to be a plus, especially with all the heat in a GT. In fact, I wish my BGT had a Webasto. Pending the results of an engine rebuild quote from David @ Sportscar Services, I would be looking at this car if it were in my neck of the woods.
The main piece of this decision comes down to three things:
1.) How much do you enjoy the restoration?
2.) How important is it that you come out ahead or even financially?
3.) Other than the engine and hydraulics, how much work needs to be done?
Tom
Where were you guy's on Saturday:) .Besides the hydraulics,tires,front end,seems ok,but it could need the works.The interior and wiring are intact and together,the webasto has been vandalized,the car has a good outside cover on it.The engine compartment I would redo.
The 2 winters that i have spent on my B,have been extremely enjoyable and fulfilling.
I would hope to come out at least financially even,as at the end of the day i think that I would have to sell one car.That said,I can see buying this car pulling the engine and taking my time,room is tight but doable.
Door still open a crack,John
Avoid White Post and send all the bits to moi. My rebuilder is second to none, albeit, WP are not bad...the NY outfit is truly to be avoided imho.
Wesbesosis is a good thing. I think you should opt in with a Swamper sort of devil in the detail attitude.
Send the Webasto to an upholsterer. They can fit it with new material, maybe better than new. Hydraulics to Kirk. New flex lines, some seals here and there as needed, but count on needing a block, don't resleeve it. Shame about the rear hatch dent, but you can't see it from the driver's seat.
If it was me I think I'd have to seriously consider fitting fuel injection via triple Weber intakes, along with EDIS. That whole idea just won't let go for some reason.
Heck, drop a suitable modern inline six into it and keep all the other bits for refitting later when you have it all together....
Just kidding on that last part, though the engine out of My lady friend's old Envoy would be a hoot!
Tom
PS: All of the above was prefaced on a $1,500-$2,000 purchase price. This is a buyer's market, and that is a buyer's car. How many people out there:
1.) Are actively looking for an MGC
2.) In your area.
3.) And have the ability/desire to even consider a serious mechanical rebuild?
As always, bring a trailer and Loonies (and a dolly!)
Sleep on it a couple more nights John! Besides, its a blue one - you probably need someone with a blue one (Bob Elwin or me) to take a proper look. These guys with yellow ones may have colour envy!! :)-D
John D
So, and I say this as project central here, unless you are will to drop 8k in a flash I'm not sure this makes sense unless you are going to keep it for a long time. The engine is 99% likely to need a full rebuild and wirh servos and everything else you are going to blow through that number (assuming you farm the work out). If you go in, you are in for the cost of a running car with history. Now if you are going to own it for a long time, and figure they all need a rebuild at some point, then so what, you ate just front ending the expense.
I could be there shortly :-)
I finally found the post with the link. Fwiw, the heater control valve is the later style. While the heat shield isn't that big a deal, Ed makes a very nice stainless replacement, the nitty details can be hard to track down. Gulp valve for one, steel plate on top of rad with seals for the bonnet, the cooling fan and bits for the carbs, and the bits for the heater valve. Not offered new by anyone I know.
Yup, a 1968 car.
The engien wouldn't worry me - I've seen lots of ring lands broken before and the blocks have plenty of meat in them. I wouldn't liner it, I'd strip it, get it sonic tested to make sure the walls were thick enough and bore it .100" or whatever was needed) oversize. The pistons are no problem, they just cost a bit as you need to get them made up specially. I can put you onto one source for about $600 in forged at whatever compression suits you.
If you are prepared to either do an engine swap yourself, or sell to someone else that is, that gives you an extra option. And last I heard there were some engine parts down in Seattle.
The big question is how much you'd have in it and what it would be worth. If you can buy someone else's restoration for half what they just put into it, that's the way to go.
The car doesn't look too bad (don't like Webastos as they are hard to restore when they rot), but some cars aren't a bargain if they gave them to you.
And I am NOT going to go and look at this car - I do NOT need any more projects.
It was originaly PP...So yet another PP GT.
So when do we go look at it with more time John....Remember the bonnet is very iffy??
Thanks for posting Bill. No one really has too many projects IMHO. Just profound bargains which need attention sometime. Did I tell you about the 32 Bentley or the 29 Fiat....just need "cosmetic" restoration and priced right!
Bill:
$600 is a bargain compared to the sleeve price that my machinist quoted(approx double for all 6),very interesting info.
Thanks,John
It was still on Cs list last night...so much for the other two very interested parties??:S
Found out today a fellow from Ricmond bought it.
Said he was going to be visiting the C Forum.
Congrats Tony!
He's probably measuring it up for a V12 as we speak.....:I3:
Hi All:
I think that I am having more sense of relief, than remorse at the moment.
John:)
Measuring it up for a V12? Sounds like you have a spare Lamborghini unit you are trying to unload Bill......
John
Sorry, been away for a vacation, but had to put my 0.02USD in.
If the tops of the pistons are gone I would suspect broken rings from sitting too long unused. My Healey broke a top ring and the end piece wore it's way up the side of the piston, wearing a spot in the bore, landed between the head and the top of the piston, hammering there a while before getting out the exhaust. It bored up fine at .030" over and the bottom end was good, too. So this might not be that bad.
However, if all are damaged it could be from running too hard with the timing advanced too much or with too lean a mixture and burning the pistons. Yes, I would think the rest of the engine is suspect and it would need to be checked as well, but they are pretty tough as well.
As far as sleeving the block, the original bores may not be that good anyway. If the factory couldn't get a good bore in the original casting they would sleeve it and finish the assembly. I have one such block with all 6 holes sleeved. Personally, I suspect the sleeves are better material than the cast iron. Cost to do this could be a problem, but done properly (align boring the block) it could be far better than the original.
And yes, I too, have a couple of spare blocks, but I was intending to save them for my own projects...
C Ya,
Mark
