MG MGB and MGB GT Tech Talk
About to buy the moss full sill body restoration parts but after adding everything up it comes to around 1,300, I'm not sure I can even afford this and was wondering what if any are some good ways to save on this important project? Just thinking ahead, I know how many more things may and will be needed including paint for this awesome and"free car"?
Search the forum for other parts dealers. Some are Moss related and can pass along their savings along to the customer. RAY
Throw an ad in the trader section and maby someone will have a set laying around and want to make some room in their garage or shop.
Contact Chris Roop at this forum. He may be able to help you out,cheers, Mike
I absolutely agree with you! The price for these components are really high.
I am just starting a restoration project and I am going to "brake" or bend my own steel plate for the inner sill, bottom sill, and vertical membrane. The only part I plan on purchasing is the outer sill. It is the only part that is visible.
I also plan on making my own floorpan out of something like 10 gauge steel.
I have read the arguments about crumple zones, etc. I have reviewed this plan with some of my auto body product engineers at the BIG 3 (since I live in the Detroit area) and they agree that the repair should be stronger then the original. I will also be significantly less expensive, but labor is free.
I will take pictures.
Sorry if this is an insulting question, but are you sure you need the whole kit? I.e., if your inner sill is ok, you don't need it. If the castle rail is ok, you don't need it either, nor the jacking point or reinforcement.
I know its a bit cheaper in the UK, but I would go with the correct bits everytime - its a bad enough job with purchased bits that nearly fit, never mind home made ones! There again, I don't have fabrication skills, so maybe with these I would have a different opinion. Just saw pics of a mates sill job in France. His mate, a blacksmith and artisan to trade did the welding - he told me he would use an arc welder, I said he would be a lot better with MIG. I was wrong - this chap is a welding artist! How he managed not to burn through holes I don't know, but his work is, well, rather beautiful. They started off along the lines of making thier own bits, then bit the bullet and bought the panels in as the amount of work vs the cost saving was not enough. But it would be great to say you had made the panels yourself.
Nicholas,
I am curious what else you have added to your shopping list to bring the total up to $1,300. I purchased the Moss sill replacement kits this past summer from a local guy here for $432 Canadian per side. One thing to note about those Moss kits, if your inner sills need to be completely replaced as mine did, the Moss kit does not include a complete inner sill, only a repair piece that does not reach all the way back to the rear wheel well. I had to exchange the inner sill repair panels from the kit for the complete inner sill pieces. Just a warning in case you need them. Hopefully your car is not as bad as mine was and you don't need to replace the inner sill as many have already mentioned.
Ryan
You can make up some of the pieces yourself, as suggested by Matt. Done correctly I have no issue with his assertion that it will be as strong (or stronger) than factory. It definitely will negatively affect the value of your car to many potential buyers, but as long as you are okay with that or never plan to sell - no big deal.
My only other suggestion is to do one side at a time. I think some people buy the whole kit, start in, and then realize its over their head or they lose interest. Why pay for it all in one big lump when you can space it out as work progresses. Yeah, you might pay a little more in shipping. And, as suggested, definitely don't buy direct from Moss, find an independent re-seller like Chris Roop. His discount has always been 20%, but I think it's going down to 15% the first of the year.
I was fortunate enough to have most of my structure sound, so I did not buy any body panels; I used 18 and 22 gauge steel I bought at Lowe's. Inner wall and membrane were OK on the rockers--I cut away enough of the outer rockers to inspect the membranes but enough remained to weld the repair plates to. Same with doglegs. Forward portion of drivers side floor was replaced with 18 ga and the forward channels of the castle rails were replaced using 1/8 x 3/4 steel strips. The purists won't like it, but I'm satisfied that it is plenty strong. I don't think it will turn away buyers when they test it for solidness, but that was never my major concern. Whatever you choose, there is plenty of MIG welding involved.
I also agree with the idea of going in and then ordering what you really need. Got any pics???
I'm only off monday this week but really want to get in there to see exactly what it looks like. If I do I'll definitely post some pics. Where and how do I get in there, should I just take an angle cutter and cut all the way across just under the seem? Ya I have no clue what I'm getting myself into but I'm ready to dive in head first with your help. Thanks a ton
Start with taking off the front fenders. If the sills look like mine in the photo below, you will be able to see the inner membrane (if it is still there, mine wasn't) and maybe the inner sill.) At least this way, you haven't cut anything in case you decide not to dive in right now.
Ryan
Are you ready for this? There are 20 some odd bolts holding each on. 3 screws along the bottom edge(that most likely won't budge), 4 on the vertical panel on the outside panel of the footwell(just in front of the door on the inside of the car, behind the trim panel), 2 or 3 under the dash at the top, two vetically behind the grille opening, a few holding the fender to the front apron, one holding the end of the bumper to the edge of the fender(just take the bumper off and get it out of your way), and the ones along the hood opening. You have to take the windshield off first, which has two on each side behind the ends of the dash, and two in the middle (bottom of the center rod).All the ones behind the dash are fun to get to with the dash in place.
As mentioned, take the windshield off first, which is easier with the dash out of the way but doable without taking the dash out. Here are a few photos of bolt locations.
First photo - behind the grill, and the front apron.
Second photo - 3 just under the scuttle - easier to see and get out if you remove the dash first. Sorry for the blurry photo. Two of them have large washers inside the car, and the one on the angle (closest to the door) has a spacer/washer in between the fender and the car.
Third photo of the spacer/washer I mentioned before. The large rectangular hole is where the windshield frame goes, just so you have a point of reference for the photo.
Fourth photo - 4 bolts running vertically just forward of the door inside the footwell (only 3 showing, there is one lower down out of the photo).
Good luck!
Absolutely not, but it may take all winter and all spring and most of summer then at least it will be ready in the fall, hopefully? Look the car came with the house I bought two years ago, It took me about three months of changing fluids, fuel pumps, hoses, gas tank, lines, tires, battery, fuses, messing with the starter and carbs and whatever else I did to get her moving on the road. All that and I have never even changed my own oil before I got my mgb so am I ready no not even close, when I nee a tool I'll go buy it, I just hope the car doesent fall on me.
Thanks for the pictures and the help, I hope I can post some sooner then later
photos, a little late is better then never, got the fenders off, dash off, seats out and few other things.
Here are some pictures of what your $1200 will be spent on when you replace sills and floors on both sides, one at a time of course.
After seeing the shapes of the parts, the only one you could reasonably make yourself is the inner web, and that is not an expensive part. I started out life doing a full Sheet Metal Apprenticeship at British Aerospace, and even if I had access to all the equipment needed I would not try and make all the parts, there is just too much compound shape to practically make them without the tooling. It can be done, but I would only do it if the parts were not available. Save up the money and buy the right parts IF you do need them all. You might not. Cut away until you have good metal then see what you need. I bought all mine at once because I was sure of what I needed.
Keep us posted.
Chris
Tell me if you think this is the right approach,
First.. weld in reinforcement bars across door area and across the the car. Thing is I don't have my mig welder yet and plan on borrowing one from ct mg club, but I do have a gas less mig, I can use that for this right?
second... cut about an inch below the door and a half inch in from the end of the back wheel well to the very edge of the front well, then a perpendicular to the ground cut at the edge of the outside lip along the length of the bottom. Does this make sense. These first cuts are basiclly to get MOST of the stuff i need gone and to see what the inner sills look like. Any advice on if I should just plan on doing the full set of sills or not is very welcome.
Third... Buy the parts I think I need
forth???? I think a whole new set of questions here
This is truly becoming one of the best threads. Chris you were actually answering most of my questions while I was writing them. WOW. Thanks for the help.
Before I could weld in the door reinforcement I had to get the door opening right. My car had been damaged on the driver’s side so it was not right. I had to remove a lot of metal to remove the previous repair to get the opening to move. Once right then I could weld in the door braces. Decide what size your lower fender repair panels need to be. Look in the Moss or VB catalogue and check how far up from the bottom they come, they are different from one to the other. Put a piece of tape 2” lower than where they come up to, then cut along the tape, (look at my fourth picture). That will expose the ends of the sills so you can see the extent of the damage, and in turn what you need.
Cut out enough to explore the extent of the damage, and remember what you cut out you have to put back. You have to go to clean solid metal to weld to. Rust does not weld.
Chris
So basiclly as high as I need to go and the rest of the front of the sill just so I can do my exploring and yes I was dropped on my head.
And those cuts look real nice, what tools did you use. Right now all I have is a cheap angle grinder. $18 harbor freight
I am going to go out on a limb and say that the price for sheetmetal for these cars is not overpriced by any means. I find that no matter who you deal with, the prices seem to come out close over the course of a project. If you have a womans love of shopping, I guess you could save a few hundred. I hate to shop. I also would stick to heritage panels if you want the job to go smoothly and not force you into an impromptu sheet metal shaping class.
Based on your pictures, I am going to present an alternative rocker repair to the traditional method. Its advantage is that to any but the most dedicated observer, it will look like you have original sills. From a structural aspect I have full confidence. From a long term preservation point of view, (as in another 40 years or so) I don't have any data.
http://www.cardomain.com/ride/3385137
As to making your own panels. No objections from a structural point of view if you know what you are doing. Be forewarned that the car will be worth nothing to a next owner as it will have zero collector value. You may foist it on an unsuspecting buyer, but unless divulged, I would question the ethics. Then again, if someone buys an MGB without doing their own due diligence...
I think I'll try to keep the doors on for this process unless I here some serious objections. the gaps were actually really good on this side until I started the project and removed the fender and placed it on the jack stands so hopefully it won't be too difficult to get back in place.
Peter what specific parts did you use for your project, you have a great set of pics there I hope thats your site or at least getting something for it. Peter your technique I guess has been used many times now. What kind of feed back have you gotten. I don't have any experience so I'm just trying to be thorough.
Thanks for all this great info.
Nice thread,i`ll be watching this one as I will be going through the same aactions in a year or so.:thumbsup:
In the past, my experience has been that you can count on Moss to be overpriced and not always good.
check the availability of the inner step sill before cutting the old one out,I tried to order the full length gen one from Midland sports and Rob said the inner step sill won't be coming out of heritage for a while,might not be this year!.You can get the steelcraft ones but they don't go full length so if you cut the old one out you might get stuck.
If someone has them already in stock you'll be fine,but its worth checking now
These pics are one of the clearest examples of fitting these parts I've seen here. For those of us who have yet to do this work, this is super useful.
It also makes me feel a little guilty about plans to use the '69 GT as a parts car. Chris obviously started with something just as rough.
Nick-
I have a possible solution to your $$$ dilemma regarding the restoration sheet metal.
I have a '71 cb MGB roadster on which the prior owner started the restoration process
using new sheet metal in the usual places and then abandoned the project.
When the predicted 4" of rains stops here on Long Island, I'll take a few pix of the
inner sills, etc. which may be of use to you; and perhaps we can come to a reasonable price.
Regards, Lee
1300 cudos sounds a bit steep for only the sheet metal. I spent about 300 bucks on the outer sills and intermediate stiffeners, got them from Moss UK (since I live in Holland). I fabricated all floor and inner wing patches that I needed from sheet metal that I got for 10 bucks. You will require basic metal working skills (which are - hammering, bending, and being creative in finding your anvils - your knee, a beer bottle, a potatoe shaped rock, etcetera :) )
Practice on the welding first. Buying a book could also help. A butt-weld is more difficult than an overlapping weld. Don't be afraid to cut out more than actually required. Holes with straight lines are much (and I mean a LOT) easier to repair than holes with edges like a shoreline. If in doubt - cut it out! Be sure to have a strategy for repair and spend lots of time making the patch fit properly. The better it fits, the easier it welds in. Make your patches out of thick paper / cardboard first and copy the final "design" on your steel sheet. Finally, use steel of 1.0 mm thickness (and I wouldn't have a clue what gauge that would be, sorry...) 0.8 mm is too thin, 1.2 becomes difficult to shape.
Good luck! Keep things posted.
Cheers, Andrys
For us US guys where can we find the proper heritage parts? I have done some searching on the Internet but find it hard to determine if they are the real thing, I guess some phone calls are in order.
Don't have to look too hard, Moss has Heritage sill panels. TRF has them too. I believe VB has them too
I ended up buying most of the parts I needed from VB, some from Moss. I tried to buy them all from Moss but Moss had very little in stock, so I went to VB they had all but the ones Moss had so I was lucky. I ended up with panels from Heritage, Steelcraft and some from Ashly Hinton. The floor pans are Ashly Hinton and do not fit very well. All the sill parts fit well.
Chris
Everything (sills, floors, cross member, inner/outer rocker, dogleg etc.) fit pretty well surprisingly and the prices were good through VB, btw I was not impressed with the doglegs from Moss- they say made in China, VB's are from England
David Looks great!! Come on down to CT for a cold one, that is one amazing transformation.
Thanks......just put in another $315 order today for the rest of the driver's side sheet metal.....man what an addiction, if you need any measurements or advice let me know. I seem to have a fairly simple process down to do these things (trying to work smarter). I received the LH dogleg from Moss and it's getting sent right back to them- it's not BMH, rather made in China. I'm on the back order log with VB for one (UK made). I still am convinced that no 2 factory panels were ever made to the same dimensions and specs (doors, fenders, etc.).....I had to adjust the heck out of darn near everything and it's still never perfect. Here's the driver's side so far...
I think we need some advice on tools, or atleast I do. I'm not rich so I have been getting most of the bottom of the barrel stuff from HF. Is their certain type or size blade for the angle grinder and stuff like that. Thanks for the insight
Hats off to those tackling sill repair. The most I have done is heater channel repair and floors for a Beetle.
With over 1K in metal, supplies, plus time, definately a labour of love. Bought my B in Texas, and oil-sprayed it every year when I lived in Canada and New England. Car is original paint and no evidence of corrosion. Took fenders off and inner wing shield a few year ago. I little caked mud, sand, but no surprises. Unless the particular car had sentimental value for me, I would not be so brave to tackle this job.
Great thread and the skill set and knowledge is amazing.
[quote=nicholas74]
Peter what specific parts did you use for your project,
Nicholas
That is my car that Peter worked on. At first Pete was not a little hesitant take that approach, but I wanted a restored B that had all the original look to it. He used standard sills, doglegs, etc., and cut them to join (either butt well or lap/flange joint) to the good original metal of the car. He's the type of fellow who loves a challenge, and this was one.
When you put entire new sills in, you lose the original welding spots on the front and rear door posts, and you can tell that the sills have been replaced. This way, with some careful cutting, welding, and finish body work, the car looks like it was never repaired.
Peter did a great job on this, as he is a meticulous individual, and a good guy, too!
He replaced both floors with MOSS parts, the front of both castle rails, butted the bottom portion of both inner and outer sills, and flange jointed both front and rear dog legs.
Nick-
Good morning.
I'm posting a few pix of the left (driver's) side of my '71 cb MGB parts car.
As I told you, the PO had started the restoration, installed many replacement panels,
and then abandoned the project.
If you need any of the sheet metal parts shown, i.e., rocker panel, door pillar, etc.,
please let me know and we can work out a fair price.
Regards, Lee B.
It looks like they are already installed, are you planning on cutting them out? I guess if you are I would like to look at them once their out ? Trunk parts?
PM me, My family lives in Philly so I'm generally passing by once every other month.
Nick
This thread is turning out quite amazing,its good to see guys without the big shops having a go and the information coming in is solid!
I've just cut the left side castle rail out of my 77 and it took me all day,i'm going to put some pics in a series of progress when I sort out my account with photobucket.I've left the top of my inner step sill in and cut out the rot,mainly so there is some kind of solid connection between the A post and the B post that keeps the line of the car intact,its a GT so the roof takes care of the top of the car.I'm using the floor repair sections (bout 3" run from front to back ) so I don't have to worry about keeping the floor edes clean.I've got a problem on the dog leg though,PO has cut too far and hasn't left the lip to put the new dogleg on to so I'll have to fabricate something there.
Did some more work on the sills today, along with the structural members that had to be replaced. I would not like to try this without the rotisserie. I have most of it welded in. but a little more to be sure then I can weld in the floors.
This is a first time for me doing this on a MG so I am learning as I go. Lots of help from people on this board, it has helped immensely. I will be forever in your debt.
Chris
Looking good Chris,can I be a pain and ask you to put a detailed picture up of the rear of the castle rail and did you have any trouble with rust in that area?
cheers
Les
Nicholas,
Lots of good info and pictures in this thread. Pictures are the best way to wrap your head around the amount of work you will need to do. I spend hours and hours searching for pictures of sill replacements to wrap my head around the job. It isn't until you start cutting pieces out that you fully get it (or at least that was the case for me). So I though I'd post a link to my sill replacement pictures. Lots of pictures, not all related to the sills, maybe not as good as some already posted, but more is better, and maybe there is one showing just the exact spot you are looking for that is not shown in others. I have completed one side so far except for the floor an now I am doing the other side. The floors will go in after the bracing comes out. I suggest you remove the doors after you brace, it will give you much more room to work. I think you mentioned earlier you plan to keep the doors on?
Good luck.
http://cid-b45ae784d720d270.skydrive.live.com/browse.aspx/Summary
Here you go Les
let me know if this is not what you wanted, and i will try from a diferent angle or whatever you need.
Chris
Thats great Chris ,thanks for that,it answers 2 questions,1 I can throw away the end fillers I got cos there nothing like yours and thats why I couldn't get them to fit:eyeroll: and 2 the distance from the spring hanger and the castle rail,to get a good gap at the door bottom I have to pull the sill out some and looking at yours its ok,I thought the castle rail had to almost touch the bracket for spring.Good info:beer:
Glad it helps, seems a little strange to have a Lad from Manchester now living in California, sending pictures to a Lad in Cheshire on a car made in England and now in California.
Ain't technology wonderful.
Chris
Les,
When I did it, the castle rail was about an inch, maybe a little less, from the spring hanger bracket. What I did, and I don't claim it is the correct method, is after I got the inner sill welded in place, I lined up the castle rail so that the other edge of the castle rail was on the same plane as the outer edge of the inner sill. See the attached sketch. Like I said, there may be a better or easier way, but this worked for me.
Ryan
Wow, that sketch did not come through clearly, I'll try again in a minute.
OK, trying a better sketch.
Don't know why I'm having so much trouble today. Oh well. If you click download, you can see the sketch. I don't know why it is not showing up.
The castle rail runs under the inner sill and actually forms part of the floor support.
Thanks Peter. I thought it was something like that but couldn't quite remember and the car is not close to me.
Ryan
First question, the moss repair panel says 10 inch and the VB doesn't state size so I cut 8'' off but this won't even expose the top of the rocker behind it? Does any one know how large the VB part is?
Do I need to remove both rows (top and bottom) of spot welds or is it only the bottom that holds the rocker on? Thank you for your patience and expertise.
